# Disaffiliation, the UMC, and Me. (and you?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 10, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593 "2023-02-10T21:19:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/1 "2023-02-10T21:19:49Z")
The short version is that on Super Bowl Sunday, at approximately Super Bowl kick-off time, my congregation of the United Methodist Church will be voting on whether to disaffiliate in accordance with the rules of Paragraph 2553. According to our pastor, the UMC has left us, but it isn’t really about LGBTQ+ rights, but . . . because of the way Paragraph 2553 is written, we have to claim that it is about LGBTQ+ rights in order to leave. I am angry that this is a thing, and more than a little annoyed at the Senior Pastor, because I wish he’d given us more information sooner, but it is what it is. I have no idea whether we’ll have the 2/3rds super majority needed to disaffiliate, or what the future holds from here (regardless of which way the church votes). Anybody else in a similar situation? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/2 "2023-02-10T21:29:12Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > Anybody else in a similar situation? With the church? Or with a conflict with the Super Bowl? And, out of curiosity, if it’s not about LBGBQ rights, what’s the dispute about? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/3 "2023-02-10T21:33:17Z")
What is the church’s position, and what is the pastor’s? I was a Catholic kid, and as I realized that I didn’t believe what they professed, I stopped going. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/4 "2023-02-10T21:34:08Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > According to our pastor, the UMC has left us In what way? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/5 "2023-02-10T22:02:07Z")
One thing about the UMC is that congregations don’t choose there own ministers. I’m sure a lot of thought is usually put into who to send where, but there can be a disconnect. For instance, a congregation in my hometown was sent a female minister and didn’t react in a very charitable manner. It’s possible for a pastor who is less favorable toward LBGTQ rights to be serving a congregation that is more accepting. I’m sure it could be vice-versa. I’m not a United Methodist, but I have a good friend who is a UMC minister. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/6 "2023-02-10T22:33:55Z")
I disaffiliated myself from the UMC a couple of decades ago, when they were waffling about LGTBQ+ issues back in the early 2000’s and looked to be headed for reaffirming the church’s ban on gay clergy and same-sex marriage, so I’m not really up to speed on the general atmosphere in the church nowadays. I can recommend looking into the Unitarian Universalists if you’re looking for a more inclusive community, although my personal path eventually took me away from religion altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/7 "2023-02-10T22:56:08Z")
Not being a Methodist I don’t know which way the UMC is going - are they for LGBTQ clergy and marriage rights, or against it? Is thee OP’s congregation leaning toward supporting the UMC’s postion or opposing it? And is the OP ok with that or not. As a member of an ELCA congregation, I can tell you that once a large denomination starts fragmenting, it will keep fragmenting. A bunch of dissatisfied Missouri Synod Lutherans broke off and combined with some smaller Lutheran groups to form the ELCA. Then the ELCA got into a fight over LGBTQ issues, and a group of them broke off and formed the North American Lutheran Church. So now you can call yourself a Lutheran and be any theological flavor from the ultra-conservative Wisconsin Synod to the conservative Missouri Synod, to the slightly less conservative North American Church to the liberal ELCA. And there are similar splits with the Presbyterians, the Episcopalian/Anglicans - even the Baptists. Anyone who’s shopping for a church has to figure out which flavor a particular congregation is. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/8 "2023-02-10T23:07:39Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > According to our pastor, the UMC has left us, but it isn’t really about LGBTQ+ rights, but . . . because of the way Paragraph 2553 is written, we have to claim that it is about LGBTQ+ rights in order to leave. But isn’t that lying? Ask yourself WWJD and maybe walk away from there. ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/9 "2023-02-11T03:42:34Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > And there are similar splits with the Presbyterians, the Episcopalian/Anglicans - even the Baptists. _Especially_ the Baptists. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/10 "2023-02-11T13:49:11Z")
See, this is why the Mrs. and I left Methodism and joined the Unitarian-Universalists decades ago. > We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: “Sincerity is not enough.” We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it’s true doesn’t make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn’t mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone. > Gay Hindu ophthalmologists, we hear you. Heterosexual Jewish Hungarian truck drivers, you are welcome. Syrian atheist refugee lactose-intolerant seamstresses, draw up a pew — or pillow, or rug or, really, whatever. [The Unitarian Jihad](https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/carroll/article/JON-CARROLL-3324002.php) The above is tongue in cheek satire regarding the UU’s non-credo spirit of acceptance and encouragement of diversity. All the best in your spiritual journey, we all need a spiritual home of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/11 "2023-02-11T16:24:54Z")
I’ve heard about the Unitarian Jihad. Cross them, and you’ll wake up to a burning question mark in your yard. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/12 "2023-02-11T20:33:26Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Not being a Methodist I don’t know which way the UMC is going - are they for LGBTQ clergy and marriage rights, or against it? Is thee OP’s congregation leaning toward supporting the UMC’s postion or opposing it? And is the OP ok with that or not Sorry for the double post, but I don’t think this ever got answered. In 2019, the UMC voted to uphold their ban on same-sex marriage, and openly gay clergy. It was a close vote, though, and apparently some of the conservative wing of the denomination feel that the church is drifting to the left and may one day reverse that decision. So some - mainly in the South, natch - have split to form their own Methodist church, the Global Methodist Church. I once attended a UMC church with a couple of pastors I really liked, so I paid a bit of attention when this happened. If the OP’s congregation is voting to disaffiliate, it means they think the United Methodists are too open on LGBTQ issues, and they want to join the Global Methodists, who embrace the traditional values of homophobia and exclusion. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/13 "2023-02-11T20:50:16Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Not being a Methodist I don’t know which way the UMC is going - are they for LGBTQ clergy and marriage rights, or against it? Is thee OP’s congregation leaning toward supporting the UMC’s postion or opposing it? And is the OP ok with that or not. Up until now, the UMC’s rules (the “Book of Discipline”) has stated that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching;” this has included not allowing openly gay clergy, not allowing UMC pastors to officiate same-sex marriages, etc. The liberal congregations within the UMC (including the congregation in which I am a member) have been trying to have that passage removed or changed, while the conservative churches have opposed it; in several Church Conferences over the past decade, the attempts to repeal that passage have been voted down, in very close votes. The schism which is in process in the UMC will leave those congregations which are remaining in the UMC as being pro-LGBTQ, including supporting having openly gay clergy; they will almost undoubtedly act to remove that portion of the Book of Discipline. The churches which are leaving the UMC are forming a separate denomination (the Global Methodist Church), which will undoubtedly keep a similar rule in their new church rules. An NPR article about the schism: > **[United Methodist Church Announces Proposal to Split Over Gay Marriage](https://www.npr.org/2020/01/04/793614135/united-methodist-church-announces-proposal-to-split-over-gay-marriage)** > > A group of leaders from the United Methodist Church announced a plan Friday to split the Protestant denomination over its beliefs on same-sex marriage and LGBTQ clergy. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/14 "2023-02-11T21:07:21Z")
Based on what the OP shared in their post, it does sound like there’s some shenanigans going on, apparently on the part of the pastor: - Scheduling the congregational vote during the Super Bowl, when some congregants, particularly those who don’t have strong opinions on the issue, might choose to stay home and watch football. - Not providing much information about exactly why he/the congregation wants to leave the UMC, and only providing that information shortly before the vote. - Being apparently cagey as to _why_ the pastor and congregation feel that the UMC has “left them.” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/15 "2023-02-11T21:16:07Z")
Also, BTW, here is the actual text of Paragraph 2553 ([source](https://www.ctcumc.org/discipline-disaffiliation-paragraphs)). Note that point 1 indicates that, as the OP’s pastor apparently noted, the only pretext for disaffiliation is over disagreement on changing the UMC’s rules regarding homosexuality. > [@](#): > > **2553. Disaffiliation of a Local Church Over Issues Related to Human Sexuality** > > 1. Because of the current deep conflict within The United Methodist Church around issues of human sexuality, a local church shall have a limited right, under the provisions of this paragraph, to disaffiliate from the denomination for reasons of conscience regarding a change in the requirements and provisions of the Book of Discipline related to the practice of homosexuality or the ordination or marriage of self-avowed practicing homosexuals as resolved and adopted by the 2019 General Conference, or the actions or inactions of its annual conference related to these issues which follow. > > 2. **Time Limits** - The choice by a local church to disaffiliate with The United Methodist Church under this paragraph shall be made in sufficient time for the process for exiting the denomination to be complete prior to December 31, 2023. The provisions of ¶ 2553 expire on December 31, 2023 and shall not be used after that date. > > 3. **Decision Making Process** - The church conference shall be conducted in accordance with ¶ 248 and shall be held within one hundred twenty (120) days after the district superintendent calls for the church conference. In addition to the provisions of ¶ 246.8, special attention shall be made to give broad notice to the full professing membership of the local church regarding the time and place of a church conference called for this purpose and to use all means necessary, including electronic communication where possible, to communicate. The decision to disaffiliate from The United Methodist Church must be approved by a two-thirds (2/3) majority vote of the professing members of the local church present at the church conference. > > 4. **Process Following Decision to Disaffiliate from The United Methodist Church** - If the church conference votes to disaffiliate from The United Methodist Church, the terms and conditions for that disaffiliation shall be established by the board of trustees of the applicable annual conference, with the advice of the cabinet, the annual conference treasurer, the annual conference benefits officer, the director of connectional ministries, and the annual conference chancellor. The terms and conditions, including the effective date of disaffiliation, shall be memorialized in a binding Disaffiliation Agreement between the annual conference and the trustees of the local church, acting on behalf of the members. That agreement must be consistent with the following provisions: > > - a) Standard Terms of the Disaffiliation Agreement. - The General Council on Finance and Administration shall develop a standard form for Disaffiliation Agreements under this paragraph to protect The United Methodist Church as set forth in ¶ 807.9. The agreement shall include a recognition of the validity and applicability of ¶ 2501, notwithstanding the release of property therefrom. Annual conferences may develop additional standard terms that are not inconsistent with the standard form of this paragraph. > - b) **Apportionments** - The local church shall pay any unpaid apportionments for the 12 months prior to disaffiliation, as well as an additional 12 months of apportionments. > - c) **Property** - A disaffiliating local church shall have the right to retain its real and personal, tangible and intangible property. All transfers of property shall be made prior to disaffiliation. All costs for transfer of title or other legal work shall be borne by the disaffiliating local church. > - d) **Pension Liabilities** - The local church shall contribute withdrawal liability in an amount equal to its pro rata share of any aggregate unfunded pension obligations to the annual conference. The General Board of Pension and Health Benefits shall determine the aggregate funding obligations of the annual conference using market factors similar to a commercial annuity provider, from which the annual conference will determine the local church’s share. > - e) **Other Liabilities** - The local church shall satisfy all other debts, loans, and liabilities, or assign and transfer them to its new entity, prior to disaffiliation. > - f) **Payment Terms** - Payment shall occur prior to the effective date of departure. > - g) **Disaffiliating Churches Continuing as Plan Sponsors of the General Board of Pension and Health Benefits Plans** - The United Methodist Church believes that a local church disaffiliating under ¶2553 shall continue to share common religious bonds and convictions with The United Methodist Church based on shared Wesleyan theology and tradition and Methodist roots, unless the local church expressly resolves to the contrary. As such, a local church disaffiliating under ¶ 2553 shall continue to be eligible to sponsor voluntary employee benefit plans through the General Board of Pension and Health Benefits under ¶ 1504.2, subject to the applicable terms and conditions of the plans. > - h) **Once the disaffiliating local church has reimbursed** the applicable annual conference for all funds due under the agreement, and provided that there are no other outstanding liabilities or claims against The United Methodist Church as a result of the disaffiliation, in consideration of the provisions of this paragraph, the applicable annual conference shall release any claims that it may have under ¶ 2501 and other paragraphs of The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church commonly referred to as the trust clause, or under the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/16 "2023-02-25T12:40:23Z")
I was thinking more about anyone struggling with the direction their church leadership is going than with the Super Bowl. If it’s not about “human sexuality” what is it about? Good question. It’s been explained to me, and I’m still not sure I understand/believe what they’ve said. But there are concerns about liberal bishops, about pastors (and maybe bishops) who don’t believe that Jesus was real or was really the Son of God, etc. Seminaries that don’t require that their students agree to an orthodox statement of faith. Pastors and Bishops who say shocking things and when they are brought up on charges to the judicial council, they are acquitted . . . The human sexuality stuff gets so much attention in part because there’s an exit route right now (asterisk for now being complicated) due to Paragraph 2553 in the Book of Discipline, but you have to “invoke” disagreement around the human sexuality stuff to be able to us it. (Clear as mud, right?) ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/17 "2023-02-25T12:42:18Z")
Pastor wants our church to disaffiliate. To be Methodists, and keep loving people well, but not be part of the Big Tent of United Methodism any longer. He’s used a lot of language people use around divorce. Where the “wronged” party wants a divorce because the other person has already abandoned them, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/18 "2023-02-25T12:44:05Z")
Yup. This is more or less one of the issues at hand. Also, we’ve been “insulated” from the drama in the wider church, because we have a tradition of good orthodox pastors and bishops . . . but who knows what the future may bring? (I found some of the arguments for disaffiliation to be scaremongering). ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/19 "2023-02-25T12:48:09Z")
At present, I’m staying with my local congregation, who has voted to disaffiliate. Should things change, I will most likely look into the other local large methodist churches, on both sides of the disaffiliation thing. (Grape vine specifies at least one isn’t voting, and one is a lot further down the road to disaffiliation). Should that change or be insufficiant, I’ll cast my net wider, but . . . I don’t think the Unitarian Universalists and I are a good match. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593/20 "2023-02-25T12:56:19Z")
At present, the UMC Book of Discipline does not approve of LGTBQ clergy or marriage. Individual congregations are more or less strict or welcoming on that. But . . . the main time that the Book of Discipline gets changed is at General Conference every four years . . . except that the last one was supposed to meet in 2020, and that didn’t happen (Covid). It was postponed to 2021, and maybe 2022, but didn’t happen yet. (Covid and visa issues, and I think they are now waiting for the fallout from disaffiliation to be more clear before rescheduling. But 2024 is not out of the question yet. (Please take all answers from me with a grain of salt, I am not spectacularly well informed on things outside what’s happening in my own congregation, which has been “insulated” from drama to the point that many of us were blindsided when the vote was announced in January, with only a month to make up one’s mind, and less time than that to register one’s intent to vote. I have done some investigating, since that time, but I’m not researching my answers here). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disaffiliation-the-umc-and-me-and-you/979593.md?page=2)