# Disagree with Miss Manners **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 11, 2024, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400 "2024-05-11T01:06:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/41 "2024-05-11T19:07:33Z")
I think etiquette is more than manners. Consider visiting another country. You should adhere to the etiquette of that country. Even if you are well mannered you might still, inadvertently, come across as rude. Each society has some built in expectations which I think can be listed under “etiquette.” Should an American woman walk down a street in Tehran wearing Daisy Dukes shorts and a tank top? Might be fine in the US but not in Tehran no matter how polite and well mannered she is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/42 "2024-05-11T19:15:53Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > That said, “Ladies can … secure other timepieces about their persons” is sheer insanity, no matter the time or place, unless they are smuggling bombs into a nuclear facility. It’s what most ladies do these days, and not just at formal events. The timepiece is their phone, and it lives in their purse. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/43 "2024-05-11T19:31:43Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > Just curious. After you cut up the one bite, do you put your knife down, switch hands and then eat the bite? One of the dumbest American habits. My mother always brushed it off by saying “We eat European style” (cut with the right, eat with the left). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/44 "2024-05-11T19:33:35Z")
Women do not wear watches as an accessory? I have a cell phone which keeps way better time than my watch but I still wear a watch. I do it because I think it looks good (and I like watches). ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/45 "2024-05-11T19:47:00Z")
When I was in college I would occasionally eat European style, partly for practice (I was an aspiring actor and wanted to be prepared in case I ever needed to do it for a role) and partly to see how long it would take for my friends to start looking at me funny. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/46 "2024-05-11T19:54:06Z")
Suppose you meet an oil sheik, and you hope that he will offer you an exiting job with a 7-figure salary. If he sees you eating with your left hand, he will probably never make such an offer. And you may never know why. Miss Manners is not writing for the people at the top of the social ladder. She is writing for the people hoping to climb. She is trying to help you avoid scorn from the snobs above you, and conflicts with the people around you. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/47 "2024-05-11T19:55:51Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Judith Martin used to fill the role at the _Washington Post_ that Alexendra Petri fills now, that of the humor writer. Some minor points: I can’t find anything online that says that Judith Martin used to be a humor columnist. She’s worked as a journalist for a long time and started doing her present column in 1978. The first name of Petri is spelled “Alexandra”. Judith Martin has doubtlessly changed some of her views expressed in her column, just as many of us have done since then. The Wikipedia entry on her says that since August 29, 2013, her children, Nicholas and Jacobina, help her in some way on the column. Perhaps they tell her about the views of younger people that she should learn about. I’m not qualified to answer any questions about manner and etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/48 "2024-05-11T20:06:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > I’m right-handed, so my fork is always in my right hand which is more dexterous, and the knife always in the left because the knife has a much simpler job than the fork. > > I’m like **Seanette**. I’m right-handed, and it makes no sense _to me_ to have the utensils as you do. Fork in the left – all it has to do is hold down the meat, and knife on the right, because that’s the one doing all the work, sawing back and forth. I’m so right-handed I don’t think I’m even capable of doing it the way you do, with knife in the left and fork on the right. I’d probably end up stabbing my arm somehow. When you eat soup, in which hand do you hold the soup spoon? If you’re right-handed, why on earth would you hold it in your left? And indeed, I believe it’s considered “proper” to use the dominant hand, for obvious reasons. So why on earth would you not do the same with a fork when eating solid foods? That addresses the strange European habit of holding the fork in the “wrong” (non-dominant) hand, but the American custom of constantly switching the knife and fork seems to me to be even more nuts. “Sawing back and forth”? Sure, when I’m doing carpentry work I hold the hacksaw or circular power saw in my right hand. Cutting off a piece of steak or roast beef doesn’t rise to that level of motor skill! There are a lot more intricate actions involved in scooping up food and delivering it to the mouth than in sliding a knife across a piece of food on a plate. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > > > After you cut up the one bite, do you put your knife down, switch hands and then eat the bite? > > I do. It feels far more natural to convey food to my mouth with my right (dominant) hand, because the majority of foods that I eat with a fork don’t require cutting with a knife. > > As @Whack-a-Mole said, customs differ between the U.S. (where I am) and Europe. I was always perplexed by the US custom of switching the knife and fork but then I discovered that the Europeans did it wrong, too. There’s nothing even remotely difficult about holding the knife in the left (non-dominant) hand. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/49 "2024-05-11T20:08:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There’s nothing even remotely difficult about holding the knife in the left (non-dominant) hand. For you, perhaps. In my case, my left hand is so clumsy with a knife that I honestly consider it unsafe. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/50 "2024-05-11T20:52:22Z")
I guess after a lifetime of eating that way, one gets good at it! 😉 It’s certainly more efficient to not have to switch the knife and fork around, while also at the same time using the fork more naturally in one’s dominant hand. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/51 "2024-05-11T20:53:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There’s nothing even remotely difficult about holding the knife in the left (non-dominant) hand. But what happens when an assassin comes for you? The seconds it takes to switch the knife to your fighting hand could be fatal! I’m certain that isn’t the reason for the method, but it makes a decent folklore explanation. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/52 "2024-05-11T20:56:00Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > But what happens when an assassin comes for you? I stab him with the fork! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/53 "2024-05-11T21:15:12Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I can’t find anything online that says that Judith Martin used to be a humor columnist. She is a humorous columnist, which is perhaps not quite the same thing. Others have covered it above, but she is not writing a serious etiquette column for people who want to get etiquette right. She is writing a humourous etiquette column that nevertheless is thoroughly researched and fact-based (i.e. she knows her stuff). It’s more of a sociological and historical discussion of etiquette than it is a proscriptive guide. She has also, in my opinion, declined a good deal since the column started being co-written. Her work as a writer, Miss Manners and otherwise, was excellent in the 20th century, but the current Miss Manners column is a shadow of its former self. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/54 "2024-05-11T21:42:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Women do not wear watches as an accessory? Young women mostly don’t. I wear a watch because i find it more convenient than pulling a phone out of my pocket, but I’m old. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > She has also, in my opinion, declined a good deal since the column started being co-written I agree with this. But hey, she’s pretty old. She deserves to retire. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/55 "2024-05-11T22:02:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s what most ladies do these days, and not just at formal events. The timepiece is their phone, and it lives in their purse. I’m sure that’s true today, at least for most events. I have no idea how smartphones are handled at evening dress dinners. That is, nevertheless, not what Miss Manners meant, since the original question was asked and answered in 1993 and contained a mention of watches in purses. To be kind, Miss Manners might have been making a sly and satirical allusion to stuffing a watch down one’s cleavage. As all of you must know by now, I am not kind, and I continue to boggle at that suggestion. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The first name of Petri is spelled “Alexandra”. I typoed it and I apologize to Ms Petri, whose column I greatly admire and I say that if you have any access to the _Post_ and haven’t been a regular reader of her column, what the hell are you waiting for? As for Judith Martin, she wrote a humorous column on politics for the _Post_, starting around 1965. Several dozen examples of which were collected for the 1972 book _The Name on the White House Floor_. Martin may not have been **the** _Post_ humor columnist; that would be Art Buchwald. I’d put her work closer to that of Russell Baker’s column for the _Times_. His books of columns also line my humor shelves. So definitely **a** humor columnist. And I cut my food with my knife in my right hand. Always have, always will. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/56 "2024-05-11T22:10:10Z")
I am ambidextrous and have always held my fork in the left hand and the knife in the right hand because that’s where they are in the place setting. I was really surprised to learn that many people swap the fork between hands. I may have learned that from Miss Manners, in fact. I guess i didn’t spend a lot of time watching exactly how other people eat. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/57 "2024-05-11T22:24:04Z")
I should use chopsticks, Id probably eat less at mealtimes as I’m hopelessly klutzy and slow with the sticks. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/58 "2024-05-11T22:26:02Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Never having been invited to a formal dinner, when I eat out with a friend, I cut my chicken into lots of bite sized pieces before I start eating. If you did that with something like this the chef would probably not even bring out the next course as he wept. [https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=3021482567947817&set=pcb.3021484461280961](https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=3021482567947817&set=pcb.3021484461280961) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/59 "2024-05-11T22:38:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > His books of columns also line my humor shelves. So definitely **a** humor columnist. Oh heck, _Miss Manners guide to excruciatingly correct behavior_ is humor. I mean, there’s useful advice in there, but it’s a very funny book ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400/60 "2024-05-11T22:49:41Z")
I know I read it way back when, though when is a long time ago. A funny book about advice is not the same as a humor book about advice was my decision. My collection, my rules. Collections are demanding; the lines about what goes in and what doesn’t always need tending. Too bad there isn’t a humorous advice book about book collecting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagree-with-miss-manners/1001400.md?page=4)