# Disagreement over meaning of the flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478 "2017-09-28T01:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/41 "2017-09-29T00:05:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is a bunch of people enjoying a getting a good, righteous (in their own eyes, at least) mad on. If you want to be part of that, then apparently I’m here to help. Following up on that thought, it’s instructive to compare the things that left and right get mad about. We libruls have been fighting all year to keep the GOP from taking health insurance away from \>20 million people, and gutting it for everyone else. And of course in the present situation, we’re upset about representatives of the government taking advantage of their apparent right to gun down black people for being black. Y’all are up in arms about what you regard as an insult to a symbol. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/42 "2017-09-29T00:11:43Z")
Oh, and the whole “soldiers fought and died for” business? The major military conflict of my lifetime was the Cold War and its various flare-ups into shooting wars (e.g. Korea and Vietnam) in order to keep us safe from the Russkis. Now we’ve got a President and a Republican Party that’s unconcerned about their ability to put a thumb on the scales of our elections. That just shits all over the service of every soldier who served during the Cold War, doesn’t it? But I don’t see y’all being upset about _that_. You care less about what is real than about something about a symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/43 "2017-09-29T00:19:13Z")
How bad am I that I used to refuse to salute the flag because the Jehovah’s Witnesses told me not to, and now I would salute the flag because that’s what’s expected of everyone? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/44 "2017-09-29T00:21:07Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > How bad am I that I used to refuse to salute the flag because the Jehovah’s Witnesses told me not to, and now I would salute the flag because that’s what’s expected of everyone? It’s a free country. You can salute or not for any reason you choose (or for whatever reason you allow someone else to choose for you) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/45 "2017-09-29T00:29:12Z")
[How the NFL sold patriotism to the US military for millions](https://thinkprogress.org/nfl-dod-national-anthem-6f682cebc7cd/) > [@](#): > > What the president failed to acknowledge in his rant was that many of the military displays present at NFL games were, at one time, financed by the government. Rather than organic, wholesome expressions of patriotism — the kind Trump has claimed NFL players are disrespectfully protesting — the tradition of players standing for the national anthem is a recent tradition that may have coincided with a marketing ploy meant to sell cheap, manufactured nationalism. > > As recently as 2015, the Department of Defense was doling out millions to the NFL for such things as military flyovers, flag unfurlings, emotional color guard ceremonies, enlistment campaigns, and — interestingly enough — national anthem performances. Additionally, according to Vice, the NFL’s policy on players standing for the national anthem also changed in 2009, with athletes “encouraged” thereafter to participate. Prior to that, teams were not given any specific instructions on the matter; some chose to remain in the locker room until after opening ceremonies were completed. (It’s unclear whether the policy change was implemented as a direct result of any Defense Department contracts.) > > In 2015, Arizona Sens. Jeff Flake (R) and John McCain (R) revealed in a joint oversight report that nearly $5.4 million in taxpayer dollars had been paid out to 14 NFL teams between 2011 and 2014 to honor service members and put on elaborate, “patriotic salutes” to the military. Overall, they reported, “these displays of paid patriotism [were] included within the $6.8 million that the Department of Defense (DOD) [had] spent on sports marketing contracts since fiscal year 2012.” > > Among the more wasteful expenditures were a payment to the Atlanta Falcons to have a National Guard member sing the national anthem and a payment to the Minnesota Vikings for the “‘opportunity’ to sponsor its military appreciation night.” > > Overall, the Defense Department spent at least $10.4 million on “marketing and advertising contracts with professional sports teams” across the board between 2012 and 2015, although, the report noted, the department “[could not] accurately account” for the full number of contracts and payouts it had awarded. “It only reported 62 percent (76 of 122) of its contracts and 70 percent ($7.3 million) of its spending in its response to our inquiry,” the senators wrote. [The “tradition” of NFL players standing for the anthem goes all the way back to 2009](https://globalnews.ca/news/3766965/tradition-of-nfl-players-saluting-the-anthem-dates-back-all-the-way-to-2009/) > [@](#): > > In truth, the heroes of “America’s game” have only been mandated to take to the sidelines for the anthem since 2009. > > Some teams had previously joined fans for the singing of the anthem, but the patriotic act was never mandatory. Guess what, folks? Even though the Pentagon has stopped using the NFL as a recruiting tool, the millions it spent weren’t wasted. Exhibit A: All the people flying into hysterics about how the military is being attacked simply because football players aren’t standing erect enough. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/46 "2017-09-29T01:50:44Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > Our local news interviewed some Panthers fans about the issue the other night. There were also a couple of Afghanistan-war veterans in the bar, so they asked them, too. They said, and I’m paraphrasing, that one of the freedoms that they were protecting for us is the right to protest. They found no personal disrespect in someone protesting the flag or the country. > > So please quit putting your own personal and internal spin on what you think we should all think about that goddamn flag. Please go back and read what I posted, several times if necessary. Then come back and try to explain how I spun anything. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/47 "2017-09-29T02:01:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Please go back and read what I posted, several times if necessary. Then come back and try to explain how I spun anything. Ok how about this part: > [@Clothahump](#): > > The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued. And a lot of soldiers died in the course of action to keep our country free. The connection is that if you diss the flag, you are dissing the servicemen and women who died so that you could have the **basic freedom to be stupid enough to diss the flag in the first place** and not see the hypocrisy in doing so. The part where you call the right to protest stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/48 "2017-09-29T02:19:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Taking a knee. _Soooooooooooooo_ disrespectful! > > When Trump and Fox News and people like you get equally upset about stuff like this, I’ll take their anger about flag disrespect a bit more seriously. I broke the link above for two reasons : it auto downloaded an image, and the image was fairly tame but also dudes in flag underwear. Please observe two click rule. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/49 "2017-09-29T02:34:10Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Please go back and read what I posted, several times if necessary. Then come back and try to explain how I spun anything. I’m away from my computer and can’t type a good response. So I appreciate **snfaulkner’s** reply. I’ll emphasize that YOU might need to re-read what YOU posted. Maybe a few times. You’ve got some deep revealing in that post. Can you see it? Most of us can. Eta, you’re right, “spin” was a poor word choice of mine. Doesn’t really affect what i posted but, _touché_, sir. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/50 "2017-09-29T10:14:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I broke the link above for two reasons : it auto downloaded an image, and the image was fairly tame but also dudes in flag underwear. > > Please observe two click rule. > > [/moderating] Huh, on both counts. Re auto-downloading: I posted from work, right before leaving. When I got home, I clicked on the link to make sure it worked. I didn’t get an auto-download; I got a box asking me if I wanted to view or download the image. (And I don’t have any highfalutin protection, just whatever comes for free with Windows 10.) Maybe it’s your settings? Re underwear: I don’t think anything opaque that covers that much of a man’s body has been referred to as ‘underwear’ in the better part of a century. (For those that are wondering, it looks like a jazzed-up version of one of those men’s swim suits from the 1910s or 20s.) I’ve got to say the idea that it needed the two-click deal because of indecency didn’t remotely cross my mind, any more than I’d have thought two clicks would be necessary for a link to an Olympic swimming competition, where the men wear much skimpier swimsuits. I’m flummoxed. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/51 "2017-09-29T10:46:47Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Why does the right equate what they see as disrespect for the flag as disrespect for the troops, while the left does not? There has always been reverence for symbolism and America’s sanctimonious love of the flag is probably not all that noteworthy. I don’t think that the Kaepernick debate is really about the flag, nor was it ever. The first people who complained about Kap taking the knee were police officers in the Bay Area, who threatened to pull security detail if he didn’t stop his protests. This has to do with an uppity black boy not knowing his proper place and showing proper deference to the men in blue. Trump naturally saw this as an opportunity to give this controversy a much larger platform and turned it into a divisive wedge issue. It doesn’t matter that a majority of people disagree with him on this; a very strong minority supports him and endorses the message of ethnic disunity. I can’t lump all Trump voters together but the people who voted for Trump and continue to embrace his worldview don’t want unity; they want deference to authority - white authority. There is a reason Trump got elected. A reason Jefferson Beauregard Sessions is attorney general. Trumpists will use their political power and their power as the nation’s social and ethnic majority to reestablish the pecking order in this country. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/52 "2017-09-29T11:56:47Z")
I’m re-reading _The Brothers Karamazov_, and came across this last night: > [@Fyodor Dostoevsky](#): > > You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn’t it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill—he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it, and so pass to genuine vindictiveness. > -Father Zossima ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/53 "2017-09-29T13:04:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If people wanted to protest the police, there are police stations in every city in this country. The players could take their day off and go march in front of the police stations. > [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a dumb way to protest that because neither the anthem nor the flag stand for the police. If they want to protest the police, they should do so directly, instead of protesting against the whole county because of the police. If multiple members of a football team led a protest march outside of a police station, they would have all the publicity they could ask for and they could still say they love their country. I suspect that you don’t understand what BLM and related protests are about. The police are just a part of the problem; without the support of many, many, many civilians, they wouldn’t be able to get away with misconduct over and over again. Protesting the whole country is exactly what is needed, so that’s what’s being done. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/54 "2017-09-29T13:50:49Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I don’t know how many times I’ve quoted Peter Beinart’s article [The War Over Patriotism](http://njbrepository.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-war-over-patriotism-by-peter-beinart.html) on this message board since it was first written in 2008, but it keeps having new relevance. Beinart was referencing the controversy over wearing flag lapel pins, but he makes some excellent points about the way that conservatives and liberals view patriotism and its symbols.The bottom line is that to a conservative, honoring the flag = recognizing the greatness of our country, and to a liberal, protesting the flag = recognizing that we can do better. That explains so much. And I think the problem is that for both sides these are such basic unspoken truths that they can’t understand why the other side thinks the way the do. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/55 "2017-09-29T13:51:11Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Why does the right equate what they see as disrespect for the flag as disrespect for the troops, while the left does not? Because the meaning of symbols is inherently subjective, tied to our own personal experiences. Symbolic meaning is never inherent; there will simply be a majority or plurality perception of their meaning, and those who fall outside this majority or plurality. There will then be those in the majority or plurality who are offended when they notice that others’ perception of the meaning of a symbol is different than theirs. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/56 "2017-09-29T14:00:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The left does sometimes see flag desecration as anti-military, and even say so - > [This is in reference to an incident of flag desecration on Veteran’s Day](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/16/flag-burnings-and-taking-down-flags-return-protest-tactics). Not all such incidents are specifically anti-military, of course. > > Another part is that the flag is not only a symbol of our freedoms in the US, but also a symbol of those who fought and sacrificed to defend those freedoms. If I sacrifice a lot for something, and you disrespect that something, it is easy to conclude that you are disrespecting me as well as the something. > > This is not to imply that this disrespect is or should be illegal. Nor that every anti-flag protest is disrespecting the troops. But the flag is a general symbol, and it is not easy to make it clear that disrespecting the flag is only disrespecting one thing that it symbolizes. That’s a bug of protesting against symbols. People are going to assume you are protesting everything that symbol represents, or at least everything they think it represents. > > Maybe you are only disrespecting the flag because Black Lives Matter. Maybe you are only putting that crucifix in urine because you like the colors. Maybe you only put up the Che Guevara T-shirt because you support the struggle of indigenous peoples in the Third World. Maybe you are only displaying the swastika because it is a sun symbol. Good luck keeping the distinctions clear. > > Regards, > Shodan I would add that another perspective to equating disrespect of a symbol with disrespect for a group is when this group who is supposedly being disrespected is wielded as a political weapon. I have seen writings from troops that detail perceived disrespect for being used as a political weapon, particularly because they died not only for the freedom of people to disrespect the flag but also for the freedoms that those supposedly doing the disrespecting are being denied by the very government that the soldiers fought/fight for. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/57 "2017-09-29T14:20:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > (bolding mine) > What is it about the flag and the anthem that people are protesting? 😕 This is a common misunderstanding/misdirection (depending on a person’s motive) that protests are about protesting the flag or the anthem. The protests are using the flag and the anthem as a platform for protesting injustices. The bare minimum they are trying to do is to bring attention to these injustices by standing out in a socially inciting way. There is arguably no bigger stage in this country that a televised football event and arguably no bigger social taboo than not “paying proper respect” for the flag and the anthem (at least at a sporting event). Therefore, to, at the very least, bring the widest attention to injustices, a logical course of action would be to “disrespect the flag and the anthem.” Yet given that protest founded our country, there is arguably no bigger respect one could pay to the flag and the anthem than using it for protest, even against the flag’s and anthem’s very country. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/58 "2017-09-29T14:32:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [How the NFL sold patriotism to the US military for millions](https://thinkprogress.org/nfl-dod-national-anthem-6f682cebc7cd/) > > [The “tradition” of NFL players standing for the anthem goes all the way back to 2009](https://globalnews.ca/news/3766965/tradition-of-nfl-players-saluting-the-anthem-dates-back-all-the-way-to-2009/) > > Guess what, folks? Even though the Pentagon has stopped using the NFL as a recruiting tool, the millions it spent weren’t wasted. Exhibit A: All the people flying into hysterics about how the military is being attacked simply because football players aren’t standing erect enough. Was thinking of the exact same thing. Despite being a tradition for my entire short life, using the flag and anthem as a tool for multibillion dollar private businesses strikes me as simultaneously the most disrespectful act and the most American act towards the flag and anthem. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/59 "2017-09-29T14:46:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Taking a knee. _Soooooooooooooo_ disrespectful! > > When Trump and Fox News and people like you get equally upset about stuff like this, I’ll take their anger about flag disrespect a bit more seriously. (And there’s a ton of stuff like that out there, and all the flag fetishizers pretty much ignore it.) This is a stupid argument. People who wear the flag as underwear or bikinis generally do so because they like the flag and want to wear the colors of the flag. The NFL players kneel because they want to show that they feel the country is not worthy of honor because of the supposed way it treats black men. They are quite explicit about this and there is no other way to interpret their actions other than an explicit sign of disrespect. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/60 "2017-09-29T14:48:13Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > Our local news interviewed some Panthers fans about the issue the other night. There were also a couple of Afghanistan-war veterans in the bar, so they asked them, too. They said, and I’m paraphrasing, that one of the freedoms that they were protecting for us is the right to protest. They found no personal disrespect in someone protesting the flag or the country. > > So please quit putting your own personal and internal spin on what you think we should all think about that goddamn flag. Presumably another one of the freedoms they fought for is the right to say that the protesters are participating in a dumb protest about a non issue in a way that insults are country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478.md?page=4)