# Disagreement over meaning of the flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478 "2017-09-28T01:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/61 "2017-09-29T14:56:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [How the NFL sold patriotism to the US military for millions](https://thinkprogress.org/nfl-dod-national-anthem-6f682cebc7cd/) > > [The “tradition” of NFL players standing for the anthem goes all the way back to 2009](https://globalnews.ca/news/3766965/tradition-of-nfl-players-saluting-the-anthem-dates-back-all-the-way-to-2009/) > > Guess what, folks? Even though the Pentagon has stopped using the NFL as a recruiting tool, the millions it spent weren’t wasted. Exhibit A: All the people flying into hysterics about how the military is being attacked simply because football players aren’t standing erect enough. It is not the military that is being attacked, it is the country. The military contains alot of people who love and sacrifice for this country so they are affected more than most other people. Standing at attention for the national anthem goes back to the 1890’s. It was done as a sign of respect for the country. Standing for the anthem at sports events goes back to the 1918 world series. Over the past 100 years it has become a custom to stand for the national anthem before a sporting event. Everyone knows that standing is a way to pay respect to the country and that not standing is a way to show disrespect for the country. They are trying to show disrespect and people are reacting to their intention. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/62 "2017-09-29T14:58:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Presumably another one of the freedoms they fought for is the right to say that the protesters are participating in a dumb protest about a non issue in a way that insults are country. It’s fine to feel that way. But we don’t need to ask for some people’s heads/jobs because they don’t agree with you. eta: Also… non issue? There’s clearly an issue (or two) here. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/63 "2017-09-29T15:03:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I suspect that you don’t understand what BLM and related protests are about. The police are just a part of the problem; without the support of many, many, many civilians, they wouldn’t be able to get away with misconduct over and over again. Protesting the whole country is exactly what is needed, so that’s what’s being done. I understand what the protests are about. They are protesting the entire country, that is why they picked the anthem and the flag, the predominant symbols of our country, to protest. Yet, there are people who claim that the protests are just about cops not shooting black people for sport. Everybody agrees that black lives matter, that innocent people should not be shot by polices, and that discrimination is wrong. That is not what the controversy is about. The controversy is whether our country is a great country with a few bad cops or an oppressive and racist nation that does not deserve respect or honor. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/64 "2017-09-29T15:09:02Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Was thinking of the exact same thing. Despite being a tradition for my entire short life, using the flag and anthem as a tool for multibillion dollar private businesses strikes me as simultaneously the most disrespectful act and the most American act towards the flag and anthem. Why?, companies are always trying to brand themselves in positive ways. Subaru tries to sell cars by claiming to love gay people, yoplait tries to sell yogurt by helping support breat cancer research, and the NFL does the same thing with breast cancer awareness. How is it disrespectful towards the flag and anthem to say that your organization loves this country? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/65 "2017-09-29T15:14:55Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > It’s fine to feel that way. But we don’t need to ask for some people’s heads/jobs because they don’t agree with you. > > eta: Also… non issue? There’s clearly an issue (or two) here. I agree that no one should lose their head over this. I am less sure about their jobs. The NFL players are entertainers whose job it is to sell tickets. If their actions make it less likely that the tickets will be sold then they are not doing their jobs. However, free speech is such an important value that no one should have their job threatened because of their political opinions, but I can see the other side. The non-issue is the idea that police have declared open season on black males. Just because a couple bad cops have shot black men without reason does not make it an issue any more than the fact of what OJ did means that the NFL players have declared war on blonde women. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/66 "2017-09-29T15:20:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Why?, companies are always trying to brand themselves in positive ways. Subaru tries to sell cars by claiming to love gay people, yoplait tries to sell yogurt by helping support breat cancer research, and the NFL does the same thing with breast cancer awareness. How is it disrespectful towards the flag and anthem to say that your organization loves this country? I find it disrespectful to use such a supposedly sacred symbol for massive financial gain. Yet using even such sacred symbols for financial gain is arguably the most American of acts. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/67 "2017-09-29T15:29:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I agree that no one should lose their head over this. I am less sure about their jobs. The NFL players are entertainers whose job it is to sell tickets.\*\* If their actions make it less likely that the tickets will be sold then they are not doing their jobs.\*\* However, free speech is such an important value that no one should have their job threatened because of their political opinions, but I can see the other side. > > The non-issue is the idea that police have declared open season on black males. Just because a couple bad cops have shot black men without reason does not make it an issue any more than the fact of what OJ did means that the NFL players have declared war on blonde women. On the (my) bolded part above, I’d tend to agree with you. My answer should be a little more nuanced but -overall- I get you. Comparing multiple black people getting shot to (the actions of) one nutjob in the NFL probably wasn’t the best example you could have used. If you really think that the issue is as isolated as Nicole losing her life, you’ve some research to do. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/68 "2017-09-29T15:41:36Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I understand what the protests are about. They are protesting the entire country, that is why they picked the anthem and the flag, the predominant symbols of our country, to protest. Yet, there are people who claim that the protests are just about cops not shooting black people for sport. They are protesting racial injustice in this country. Nothing so narrow as “the police”, nothing so broad as “the country”, but rather specific aspects of the country. > [@](#): > > Everybody agrees that black lives matter, that innocent people should not be shot by polices, and that discrimination is wrong. Plainly, “everybody” doesn’t. They probably don’t actively _wish_ for innocent people to be gunned down by police, but when it happens to a black man, they come down on the side of the police facing no consequences for their misconduct. We see this over and over again: prosecutors try to persuade grand juries not to indict, and the grand juries comply. > [@](#): > > That is not what the controversy is about. The controversy is whether our country is a great country with a few bad cops or an oppressive and racist nation that does not deserve respect or honor. As above, it’s somewhere in between. A great country with a few bad cops would have no problem putting those cops in prison. Why is so hard for us to do that? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/69 "2017-09-29T16:14:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The controversy is whether our country is a great country with a few bad cops or an oppressive and racist nation that does not deserve respect or honor. It’s a little more nuanced than that. As referenced in the article I quoted above, it’s about whether patriotism means recognizing the existing greatness of our country, or recognizing the ways in which it could be greater. The liberal viewpoint, that the most important thing is to look to a better future, and to emphasize the changes that need to be made rather than the good things that already exist, is a valid and worthy position; as valid and worthy as a conservative viewpoint that wants to emphasize the ways in which the country has been great in the past. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/70 "2017-09-29T16:51:51Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > On the (my) bolded part above, I’d tend to agree with you. My answer should be a little more nuanced but -overall- I get you. > > Comparing multiple black people getting shot to (the actions of) one nutjob in the NFL probably wasn’t the best example you could have used. If you really think that the issue is as isolated as Nicole losing her life, you’ve some research to do. I have done the research. It is not just OJ who likes to kill women, it was Rae Carruth, Robert Rozier, Jovan Belcher, and De’Von Hall. Obviously there is something about black football players that makes them want to kill women. Or, both of these phenomenon, NFL killers, and police shootings, are both examples of the Chinese robber fallacy. Any large group of people such as the 1.1 million US cops will have examples of heinous behavior, but that does not mean it is a systemic problem. Roland Fryer, did a [study](http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399)that showed blacks are not more likely than whites to be shot by police. This whole thing is a media generated moral panic, like the black church burnings, the satanic cult daycares, or shark attacks. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/71 "2017-09-29T16:57:11Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > It’s a little more nuanced than that. As referenced in the article I quoted above, it’s about whether patriotism means recognizing the existing greatness of our country, or recognizing the ways in which it could be greater. The liberal viewpoint, that the most important thing is to look to a better future, and to emphasize the changes that need to be made rather than the good things that already exist, is a valid and worthy position; as valid and worthy as a conservative viewpoint that wants to emphasize the ways in which the country has been great in the past. As a conservative I would say patriotism means both. This country would be greater if it outlawed abortion, and had fewer taxes and regulations. However, despite these and numerous other flaws it is still great. If you had two suitors, one who said you were beautiful and one who said you would be beautiful if you got your teeth fixed, lost twenty pounds, and a got a decent haircut, which would you think actually loved you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/72 "2017-09-29T17:01:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I have done the research. It is not just OJ who likes to kill women, it was Rae Carruth, Robert Rozier, Jovan Belcher, and De’Von Hall. Obviously there is something about black football players that makes them want to kill women. > Or, both of these phenomenon, NFL killers, and police shootings, are both examples of the Chinese robber fallacy. Any large group of people such as the 1.1 million US cops will have examples of heinous behavior, but that does not mean it is a systemic problem. Roland Fryer, did a [study](http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399)that showed blacks are not more likely than whites to be shot by police. This whole thing is a media generated moral panic, like the black church burnings, the satanic cult daycares, or shark attacks. Some polling: [http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages...0803-9759.aspx](http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages...0803-9759.aspx) 50% of black people report that they have personally been mistreated by police. Another 15% report that they have not, but a family member has. So that’s 65% of black people who have either been mistreated, or have had a family member mistreated. In comparison: 28% of Hispanic people report being personally mistreated, with another 23% reporting family members having been mistreated. 3% of white people report being personally mistreated by police, with another 5% reporting that family members have been mistreated. With these numbers, there doesn’t seem to be any chance whatsoever that most black people will see law enforcement as allies to trust or rely upon, and will be much more likely to see them as dangerous and untrustworthy enemies to be feared. Unless you just think black people are liars, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/73 "2017-09-29T17:02:17Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > As a conservative I would say patriotism means both. This country would be greater if it outlawed abortion, and had fewer taxes and regulations. However, despite these and numerous other flaws it is still great. > If you had two suitors, one who said you were beautiful and one who said you would be beautiful if you got your teeth fixed, lost twenty pounds, and a got a decent haircut, which would you think actually loved you? If one of them said that I’d be beautiful if I stopped mistreating black people, then that one loves me in a much more mature and more productive way. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/74 "2017-09-29T17:55:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > As a conservative I would say patriotism means both. This country would be greater if it outlawed abortion, and had fewer taxes and regulations. However, despite these and numerous other flaws it is still great. > If you had two suitors, one who said you were beautiful and one who said you would be beautiful if you got your teeth fixed, lost twenty pounds, and a got a decent haircut, which would you think actually loved you? In a funny way, your analogy demonstrates my point. It focuses on superficial changes in appearance, rather than the qualities I would consider in judging a country or a suitor. I would prefer something like “If you had two suitors, one of whom said you were a good person, and the other of whom said you would be a better person if you stopped using racial slurs, paid your employees a decent wage, and stopped drinking and driving, which would you think actually cared about sharing your values?” But that aside, if you agree that patriotism can sometimes mean emphasizing ways that the country can be improved, can you accept that those people who are taking a knee in order to express their dissatisfaction with the justice system are being patriotic in their own way? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/75 "2017-09-29T18:59:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a stupid argument. People who wear the flag as underwear or bikinis generally do so because they like the flag and want to wear the colors of the flag. The NFL players kneel because they want to show that they feel the country is not worthy of honor because of the supposed way it treats black men. They are quite explicit about this and there is no other way to interpret their actions other than an explicit sign of disrespect. I’m sorry, but did you just actually say that kneeling during the National Anthem as a way to point out injustice is somehow more disrespectful than wearing the United States Flag as underwear? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/76 "2017-09-29T19:31:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m sorry, but did you just actually say that kneeling during the National Anthem as a way to point out injustice is somehow more disrespectful than wearing the United States Flag as underwear? My question is, how do you put it on while standing at attention? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/77 "2017-09-29T19:36:36Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a stupid argument. People who wear the flag as underwear or bikinis generally do so because they like the flag and want to wear the colors of the flag. Still isn’t _respectful_. So if your problem is with failing to show proper respect to the flag, then you should be pissed at the makers and wearers of such things. But what you’re really doing is effectively saying, “these people are showing disrespect in a way that makes me feel like they and I are on the same side of our political and cultural divides, but _those people_ are doing so in a way that IMHO puts them on the opposite side of those divides from me.” > [@](#): > > The NFL players kneel because they want to show that they feel the country is not worthy of honor because of the supposed way it treats black men. They are quite explicit about this and there is no other way to interpret their actions other than an explicit sign of disrespect. And you know this, how? Please give for-instances of where “[t]hey are quite explicit about this.” And “and there is no other way to interpret their actions other than an explicit sign of disrespect”? I presented an interpretation of their actions that is very much the opposite of a sign of disrespect. Therefore there is such a way, and your statement is FALSE. Thanks for playing, though. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/78 "2017-09-29T19:58:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They are trying to show disrespect and people are reacting to their intention. Mind reading. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I understand what the protests are about. They are protesting the entire country More mind reading. > [@](#): > > Everybody agrees that black lives matter, that innocent people should not be shot by polices, and that discrimination is wrong. That is not what the controversy is about. The controversy is about whether we as a nation are going to **do** anything about our near-unanimous agreement that black lives matter, when law enforcement frequently treats blacks as if their lives are worth zilch. Believing something doesn’t mean much if you don’t _act_ on your beliefs. > [@puddleglum](#): > > The non-issue is the idea that police have declared open season on black males. Just because a couple bad cops have shot black men without reason Man, those couple bad cops[have gone on one hell of a shooting spree](https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/). But they’re still out there, killing black people. Maybe someone had better put them in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/79 "2017-09-29T20:57:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They are protesting the country by purposely and publicly disrespecting the anthem and the flag that stands for the country. The reason they are doing so is that they think the police are biased toward black men. This is a dumb way to protest that because neither the anthem nor the flag stand for the police. Which part of a football game should football players protest during to appropriately signal their disgruntlement with the police? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/80 "2017-09-29T21:05:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Which part of a football game should football players protest during to appropriately signal their disgruntlement with the police? You should already know how this will be answered - “At no point during a football game should football players protest” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478.md?page=5)