# Disagreement over meaning of the flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478 "2017-09-28T01:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/81 "2017-09-29T22:21:40Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I have done the research. It is not just OJ who likes to kill women, it was Rae Carruth, Robert Rozier, Jovan Belcher, and De’Von Hall. Obviously there is something about black football players that makes them want to kill women. > Or, both of these phenomenon, NFL killers, and police shootings, are both examples of the Chinese robber fallacy. Any large group of people such as the 1.1 million US cops will have examples of heinous behavior, but that does not mean it is a systemic problem. Roland Fryer, did a [study](http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399)that showed blacks are not more likely than whites to be shot by police. This whole thing is a media generated moral panic, like the black church burnings, the satanic cult daycares, or shark attacks. There is a very real systemic problem with police not being held accountable for their actions. It’s pretty similar to the way pedophilic priests have been protected from consequences for their actions. This is a problem with the operation and priorities of the justice system, and it very clearly is the job of the executive branch to fix it. Protesting the flag is the correct and appropriate approach here. And as protests go, it’s the absolutely most respectful protest _ever_. They’re _kneeling_ before the thing. They’re saying they can’t stand for what it represents, but they still honor it and beseech it to do better. I can think of no better way to say that they love their country - certainly it conveys it more than some fuckstick who declares that everyone must stand, because patriotism is run by a dictatorship now! If they were really disrespecting the country, they would be _ **burning** _ the flag, not kneeling before it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/82 "2017-09-30T08:50:33Z")
I can’t say this is because I am liberal, but my response to the flag is that it has no inherent meaning other than “this is the flag of the United States.” So I find it bizarre that people will take away any other meaning than the one the people say they mean. Because there is no other one. It’s just a flag. There’s no magic there. Disrespecting it won’t cause a god to shoot you with fire. It harms no one, and being forced to honor it is unfair to our ideas of freedom. These things we do are just traditions, not anything that has any intrinsic value. It’s not that the flag is oppressive. It’s that it’s just a flag. It’s not an object of worship, but a symbol for the U.S., same as the words “The United States of America.” If I didn’t stand up when I wrote that, am I not patriotic? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/83 "2017-09-30T10:23:29Z")
When did kneeling become _less_ respectful than standing? Don’t we kneel in church? Isn’t that done because it’s _more_ respectful than just standing? How is kneeling before something, your God, your Pope, your grandparents disrespectful? I think the answer is it’s not. Just like removing statues to the defenders of racism, isn’t ‘erasing’ that history. Or demanding justice for those wrongly killed by police is being anti police. Abortion isn’t murder, it’s perfectly legal. Just because the Right wants these things to be truth, doesn’t make it so. Saying it doesn’t make it so. You know who is always showing 100% respect for their flag, under threat of prosecution? North Koreans. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/84 "2017-09-30T20:01:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can’t say this is because I am liberal, but my response to the flag is that it has no inherent meaning other than “this is the flag of the United States.” So I find it bizarre that people will take away any other meaning than the one the people say they mean. Because there is no other one. > > It’s just a flag. There’s no magic there… It’s worth recalling that some substantial proportion of Americans have authoritarianism-craving brains. (This appears to be the case for all nations; it appears to be a species-wide phenomenon.) For people who crave a Great Father and strict hierarchy and strict rules by which the hierarchy is enforced, “standing for the anthem” and “saluting the flag” are not what they are to less authoritarianism-oriented people. For those who don’t crave the Great Father, standing for the anthem and saluting the flag are _merely symbolic stand-ins_ for what may be a very real appreciation for the nation’s history and for the people who made it, from the Founders to the military to the guy down the block who went out of his way to help out following a hurricane or other disaster. But to the authoritarian-oriented brain, the anthem and the flag aren’t merely symbols—they are things-in-themselves. “Disrespecting” them provokes both terror and outrage, because such “disrespect” threatens to endanger the hierarchy. There’s probably no amount of reasonable discussion that can dissuade an authoritarianism-craver from believing that ‘disrespecting’ the flag or anthem isn’t a national emergency. It’s just the way their brains work. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/85 "2017-09-30T21:43:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If they were really disrespecting the country, they would be _ **burning** _ the flag, not kneeling before it. Even then, burning the flag is a protected act of free expression in the US, as long as you’re not creating a fire hazard to life or property. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/86 "2017-09-30T21:59:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > When did kneeling become _less_ respectful than standing? When the announcement is made “Ladies and Gentlemen, please stand up for the National Anthem of the United States of America”. Was that supposed to be a trick question? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/87 "2017-09-30T22:00:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When the announcement is made “Ladies and Gentlemen, please stand up for the National Anthem of the United States of America”. Was that supposed to be a trick question? And paraplegics are the least patriotic of all. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/88 "2017-09-30T22:17:01Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s worth recalling that some substantial proportion of Americans have authoritarianism-craving brains. (This appears to be the case for all nations; it appears to be a species-wide phenomenon.) > > For people who crave a Great Father and strict hierarchy and strict rules by which the hierarchy is enforced, “standing for the anthem” and “saluting the flag” are not what they are to less authoritarianism-oriented people. For those who don’t crave the Great Father, standing for the anthem and saluting the flag are _merely symbolic stand-ins_ for what may be a very real appreciation for the nation’s history and for the people who made it, from the Founders to the military to the guy down the block who went out of his way to help out following a hurricane or other disaster. > > But to the authoritarian-oriented brain, the anthem and the flag aren’t merely symbols—they are things-in-themselves. “Disrespecting” them provokes both terror and outrage, because such “disrespect” threatens to endanger the hierarchy. > > There’s probably no amount of reasonable discussion that can dissuade an authoritarianism-craver from believing that ‘disrespecting’ the flag or anthem isn’t a national emergency. It’s just the way their brains work. Wow. What nonsense. :rolleyes: I know it’s Great Debates, not General Questions, but really, that sort of answer ought to at least carry with it the disclaimer: I’m pulling the following opinion totally out of my … There are plenty of people who view the flag as symbolic not only of the country, but of the values and ideals they attach to our country. Like Liberty, or Freedom, or Apple Pie. So if you are disrespecting the flag, you are disrespecting the value that they cherish, in their mind. Which has nothing to do with craving a “Great Father”. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/89 "2017-09-30T23:54:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The controversy is whether our country is a great country with a few bad cops or an oppressive and racist nation that does not deserve respect or honor. The either/or fallacy: either it’s this one thing that I say it is, or it’s this other thing I say it is. There are no other interpretations. Except, of course, that there are, like this one: Our country is a great country that has issues that need to be addressed. Or this one: Our country is a great country that has more than a few bad cops. Or this one: Our country is a great country, but its president is a man who disrespected my teammates, so I’m going to show solidarity by kneeling with them. The majority of the NFL players who took a knee last Sunday were, if you’ll recall, doing so in reaction to Trump’s tweets: hence the huge increase in those kneeling. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/90 "2017-09-30T23:58:56Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Wow. What nonsense. :rolleyes: > I know it’s Great Debates, not General Questions, but really, that sort of answer ought to at least carry with it the disclaimer: I’m pulling the following opinion totally out of my … > There are plenty of people who view the flag as symbolic not only of the country, but of the values and ideals they attach to our country. Like Liberty, or Freedom, or Apple Pie. So if you are disrespecting the flag, you are disrespecting the value that they cherish, in their mind. Which has nothing to do with craving a “Great Father”. My point was that those who feel emotional about “respecting” the flag (by performing some physical actions and not other physical actions) differ in a fundamental way from those who, as I said, believe that: > [@](#): > > standing for the anthem and saluting the flag are merely symbolic stand-ins for what may be a very real appreciation for the nation’s history and for the people who made it, from the Founders to the military to the guy down the block who went out of his way to help out following a hurricane or other disaster. Such people feel no particular outrage or uneasiness when, say, a football player kneels instead of standing. They feel no particular outrage or uneasiness because they don’t have the sort of mind that sees a threat in the kneeling; instead, they may pause to consider the merits of the particular protest demonstration underway, while reflecting on the value of a culture that not only permits peaceful protest, but enshrines it as a founding virtue of the republic. But others do feel outrage. They see threat. They cannot pause to consider the value of peaceful protest, because their minds are consumed with their indignation and wrath. My post was intended to convey the concept that these are two different types of minds. That concept is more than my “opinion,” as any cursory search will reveal. For some helpful objective information on the topic, try: The research of J. Weiler and M. Hetherington; this is a lay-friendly presentation: > **[Demystifying the Trump Coalition: It's the Authoritarianism](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/demystifying-the-trump-co_b_8089380)** > > The basis of Trump's support isn't all that much of a mystery. In fact, his appeals are crafted - intentionally or not - to appeal to a bulwark of the contemporary Republican Party. That constituency is authoritarians. Political conservatism and authoritarianism (this is the original research–a PDF): [https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/34149497/Jost\_et\_al.\_2003\_Political\_conservatism\_as\_motivated\_social\_cognition.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1506818681&Signature=FIriH75dNNrQi3JjAfi9ZXPwmcE%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DPolitical\_Conservatism\_as\_Motivated\_Soci.pdf](https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/34149497/Jost_et_al._2003_Political_conservatism_as_motivated_social_cognition.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1506818681&Signature=FIriH75dNNrQi3JjAfi9ZXPwmcE%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DPolitical_Conservatism_as_Motivated_Soci.pdf) Trial lawyers are very much aware of the personality-type divisions and the effect they can have on jury selection. This is a review of research on many aspects of jury decision making; the discussion of “high-authoritarian” jurors versus other types begins on page 53: [http://ai2-s2-pdfs.s3.amazonaws.com/5cf0/c05cf4cf27e3912ecaeddac03d71b01d4532.pdf](http://ai2-s2-pdfs.s3.amazonaws.com/5cf0/c05cf4cf27e3912ecaeddac03d71b01d4532.pdf) It may be the case that you don’t want to believe that there is such a thing as the authoritarianism-oriented personality type, but in fact there is copious supportive research available exploring the concept; enough, certainly, to show that this isn’t merely my “opinion.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/91 "2017-10-01T00:07:21Z")
Or this one: We have no business spending our time and effort thinking about whether we are “great” as a country. We should take satisfaction in accomplishments, but not because they make us “great” or not. Our concern and goal and our constant struggle should be to identify what can be improved and take steps to improve those things. We should alsways be thinking about what we should be doing for others and never about how good we are. We should recognize individuals for what they do to improve things for others but we should never extend that to honoring ourselves as a group, and we should never allow recognition of an individual’s good deeds to allow him or her to be elevated as an object of veneration. Saluting the flag amounts to a ceremony of group self-love, which is something we should strictly avoid. Our eyes should always be on what can be made better, not how good we are, especially compared to others. Nothing should be venerated, nothing should be worshiped, especially if it amounts to self-congratulation. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/92 "2017-10-01T05:15:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Or this one: We have no business spending our time and effort thinking about whether we are “great” as a country. > > We should take satisfaction in accomplishments, but not because they make us “great” or not. Our concern and goal and our constant struggle should be to identify what can be improved and take steps to improve those things. > > We should alsways be thinking about what we should be doing for others and never about how good we are. > > We should recognize individuals for what they do to improve things for others but we should never extend that to honoring ourselves as a group, and we should never allow recognition of an individual’s good deeds to allow him or her to be elevated as an object of veneration. > > Saluting the flag amounts to a ceremony of group self-love, which is something we should strictly avoid. Our eyes should always be on what can be made better, not how good we are, especially compared to others. > > Nothing should be venerated, nothing should be worshiped, especially if it amounts to self-congratulation. Very lofty, but perhaps a tad unrealistic, given human psychology, sociology, etc. For instance, social identity theory holds that we maintain healthy self-esteem in part by seeing (realistically or not) our mutual in-group’s good (or great) qualities. I’m not sure that can be limited to seeing our in-group’s merely-OK qualities. And then there’s the sticky business of taking satisfaction in accomplishments–but not because they make us “great.” How about if they make us satisfactory? What we _should_ do and what we _can_ do are, alas, not always the same. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/93 "2017-10-01T12:54:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When the announcement is made “Ladies and Gentlemen, please stand up for the National Anthem of the United States of America”. Was that supposed to be a trick question? So, like, why the ‘please’? I mean, if it’s a non option to stay seated, why ask? So what you mean is, let’s get rid of the ‘Please’, and outright ORDER people to obey the great leader’s commands! Just like that bastion of freedom and democracy…North Korea! (What the hell is going on with America? Christians are turning hateful, patriots are wanting NK style obedience!) ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/94 "2017-10-01T17:37:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The flag does not belong just to the soldiers as you say, it belongs to everyone who has worked, suffered, and sacrificed to make this country great. > That is why the protests are so offensive. By protesting the anthem and the flag, you protest all of it. If people wanted to protest the police, there are police stations in every city in this country. The players could take their day off and go march in front of the police stations. Yet by choosing the to protest the anthem and the flag, they are protesting the entire country for which it stands. > If one of the NFL players wore a headband that said MLK sucks, people would probably get upset about that, even if he claimed he only meant that MLK was a bad husband because of his infidelity and he loved MLK’s civil rights work. [Malcolm Jenkins](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-protesting-nfl-players-like-me-want-to-do-next/2017/09/30/507fc4b0-a513-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.b82373bf1700), a safety and defensive team captain with the Philadelphia Eagles, is playing his ninth season in the NFL. > [@](#): > > A year ago, I was one of several NFL players who began demonstrating in the hope of sparking conversation about injustice in our country. That effort has now grown to include players and teams across the league, as we proclaim together that we believe in equality and justice for everyone. We understand that these conversations are often uncomfortable, but they are important for progress. Our demonstrations have never been about the symbols and traditions we use to honor America. They have been about us as citizens making sure we hold America to the ideals and promises that make this country great. > > We believe our country can do better — can be better. > > In the past year, more than 40 NFL players have joined Anquan Boldin, who retired this summer after 14 seasons, and me to form a Players Coalition dedicated to improving our criminal-justice system. > > We want to lend our voices to changing this flawed system, which is crippling our nation and especially affects people who are poor or of color. We have gone on ride-alongs with police, visited Capitol Hill and talked with policy advocates and grass-roots organizers. We’ve learned first-hand about the problems we face. We’ve also learned that we aren’t alone. There are plenty of Republicans and Democrats, community leaders and members of law enforcement who agree. > [@](#): > > I’ve heard people say that my colleagues and I are un-American and unpatriotic. Well, we want to make America great. We want to help make our country safe and prosperous. We want a land of justice and equality. True patriotism is loving your country and countrymen enough to want to make it better. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/95 "2017-10-02T01:46:11Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Very lofty, but perhaps a tad unrealistic, given human psychology, sociology, etc. For instance, social identity theory holds that we maintain healthy self-esteem in part by seeing (realistically or not) our mutual in-group’s good (or great) qualities. I’m not sure that can be limited to seeing our in-group’s merely-OK qualities. > > And then there’s the sticky business of taking satisfaction in accomplishments–but not because they make us “great.” How about if they make us satisfactory? > > What we _should_ do and what we _can_ do are, alas, not always the same. Well what we certainly can do is stop staging public rituals to praise ourselves, especially at commercial performances. There’s nothing unrealistic about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478/96 "2017-10-02T02:51:15Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Standing at attention for the national anthem goes back to the 1890’s. Interesting, since you didn’t officially have a national anthem until 1931. > [@](#): > > Everyone knows that standing is a way to pay respect to the country and that not standing is a way to show disrespect for the country. No, everyone (well, most Americans) accept the arbitrary practice of standing for the anthem and _consider_ it a gesture of respect. If the long-standing arbitrary practice had been to kneel, _that_ would be considered the way to pay respect. > [@](#): > > They are trying to show disrespect and people are reacting to their intention. Maybe they respect the country but want it to know it can do better. There’s certainly a lot of room for improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disagreement-over-meaning-of-the-flag/797478.md?page=4)