# Discovering the 'New World' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227 "2011-10-10T21:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/21 "2011-10-11T00:45:45Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As a further comment on this, Columbus’s original plan was to find and trade with the advanced civilizations of China, Japan, and the Indies. Of course trying to enslave the subjects of any of these places would have been bad for business, even if Columbus had had enough muscle. Enslaving the locals only became a real option when they turned out to be much less technologically or politically advanced than expected. Do we know how Columbus rationalized to himself that he was in Asia after not finding anything that remotely resembled the quite large Civilizations of that continent? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/22 "2011-10-11T00:48:12Z")
I’ve heard speculation was that part of the reason why Columbus thought that the globe was smaller and Asia larger than they actually are, was that he had heard reliable rumors, possibly from the descendants of the Vikings, that there was land an accessible distance across the Atlantic. Which, of course, there was. Columbus’ mistake was just in not knowing which land it was. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/23 "2011-10-11T00:58:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard speculation was that part of the reason why Columbus thought that the globe was smaller and Asia larger than they actually are, was that he had heard reliable rumors, possibly from the descendants of the Vikings, that there was land an accessible distance across the Atlantic. Which, of course, there was. Columbus’ mistake was just in not knowing which land it was. You’re probably thinking of [The Vinland Map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland_map), which I’m not sure was thought to be in the possession of “descendants of the Vikings”, but it’s generally thought to be a fake. No one doubted that there was land accessible across the Atlantic, they just thought it was too far to make the journey practical with the technology of the day. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/24 "2011-10-11T01:11:02Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Most of us were taught in primary school that Columbus and his men were the first Europeans to step foot in the ‘new world’ in 1492. There seems to be evidence that the first Europeans to visit the New World were Solutrean people from Southern France about 16,000 BC. A lot’s been written but here’s just one reference; > **[BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - Stone Age Columbus](https://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml)** > > Stone Age Columbus. Flint tools found on both sides of the Atlantic ocean suggest a whole new version of North American prehistory ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/25 "2011-10-11T01:15:01Z")
> [@UncleFred](#): > > There seems to be evidence that the first Europeans to visit the New World were Solutrean people from Southern France about 16,000 BC. > > A lot’s been written but here’s just one reference; > > [BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - Stone Age Columbus](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml) A very fringe idea in the scientific community. Very fringe. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/26 "2011-10-11T02:04:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do we know how Columbus rationalized to himself that he was in Asia after not finding anything that remotely resembled the quite large Civilizations of that continent? I read somewhere (no cite, alas) that he had convinced himself he was in the Spice Islands the whole time. Hence the name “pepper” for chillis. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/27 "2011-10-11T02:14:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do we know how Columbus rationalized to himself that he was in Asia after not finding anything that remotely resembled the quite large Civilizations of that continent? He believed he was in outlying islands at the fringe of Asia. Japan was always just over the horizon. When he was in Hispaniola, he became convinced by what he heard from the locals that it was Cuba. Of course exploration proved that the Cubans were much like the Hispaniolans. When he found Central America on his fourth voyage, he became convinced it was part of the Peninsula of the [Golden Chersonese,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Chersonese) or Malaya. He sailed south in hopes of finding the Straits of Malacca and rounding for India. (If he had sailed north he might have encountered the Aztecs. Lord knows what he would have made of them.) He eventually gave up on that after sailing far eastward without finding a break. Columbus had a talent for two things: navigation and self-deception. He was a crackpot, and no amount of contrary information was going to convince him that his pet theory was wrong and he wasn’t in Asia. When Magellan finally reached Asia by sailing west as Columbus had proposed, he first found cultures in the Philippines that were not too different a level from those found by Columbus. So Columbus’s idea that he was in an outlying region of Asia was not unreasonable at first. It became so after more extensive exploration began to demonstrate the true state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/28 "2011-10-11T02:20:15Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I read somewhere (no cite, alas) that he had convinced himself he was in the Spice Islands the whole time. Hence the name “pepper” for chillis. You may have read it in my[staff report on chilis.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1857/are-birds-immune-to-hot-pepper-enabling-them-to-eat-vast-amounts-and-spread-the-seeds) However, that was a bit of PR. He knew chilis were different from real pepper, but wanted to show he had discovered a similar spice. But yes, he tried to interpret everything he saw with reference to what was known of the East. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/29 "2011-10-11T02:28:44Z")
This book doesn’t answer the OP’s questions specifically, but it has some great stories and I think it’s worth reading: [A Voyage Long and Strange: Rediscovering the New World](http://www.amazon.com/Voyage-Long-Strange-Rediscovering-World/dp/0805076034) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/30 "2011-10-11T04:09:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, that was a bit of PR. He knew chilis were different from real pepper, but wanted to show he had discovered a similar spice. But yes, he tried to interpret everything he saw with reference to what was known of the East. To be fair, he had no other point of reference, and there wasn’t a whole lot known about the Far East. Heck, there wasn’t a lot of clear information about the Far East even _in_ the Far East. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/31 "2011-10-11T04:28:13Z")
Thanks for these clarifications, **Colibri**. But some comments: > [@Colibri](#): > > Then why, exactly, did he mount an expedition to find Japan _after_ he was deposed as governor? I am amazed that apparently both he and the Spanish made him the governor of a place thousands of miles away from where they thought he was. I guess their highnesses in Spain at this point really had nothing to go on but Columbus’s word. > [@](#): > > True, but one of the trade items sought was gold. Ignorance fought. I thought it was pretty much the insanely profitable spices. > [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Columbus convinced himself that the earth was smaller and the land mass of Europe/Asia was larger than anyone else had calculated. Idle curiosity: Is there any reason to believe that Orson Scott Card’s hypothesis in _Pastwatch_ is at all likely? The book supposes that Columbus was well aware of the real circumference of the earth, but that he shrank it considerably to make his voyages appear more likely to succeed. On the other hand, perhaps not, because then he would have known that wherever the hell he was was not Asia but somewhere a hell of a lot closer. Another idle curiosity: How common was Columbus’s belief that he had found somewhere near Asia among the other sailors with him? There may not be any surviving records, but did they think he was wrong? nuts? kind of an idiot? Finally, a self correction: > [@RadicalPi](#): > > 1. No. The purpose of the trip was to find a trade route to Asia that avoided going west. And it would have worked, too, if it weren’t for those meddling continents. The goal of course _was_ to go west. That way they would avoid going _east_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/32 "2011-10-11T04:29:41Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > To be fair, he had no other point of reference, and there wasn’t a whole lot known about the Far East. True, but Columbus really went out of his way to make what he saw conform to what he wanted to see. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/33 "2011-10-11T04:33:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Lans aux Meadows](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lans_aux_meadows) . Talk about Franglish. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/34 "2011-10-11T04:35:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re probably thinking of [The Vinland Map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland_map), which I’m not sure was thought to be in the possession of “descendants of the Vikings”, but it’s generally thought to be a fake. No, the idea is that during an earlier trip to Iceland he supposedly had heard about the Saga of the Greenlanders or something like that. The problem with such thinking is that he didn’t follow these stories up. If he did think the lands discovered by Eric the Red et al were connected to Asia, then he would have started his voyages by sailing to Iceland and then west from there. Instead he sailed to the Canaries first. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/35 "2011-10-11T04:49:16Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > I am amazed that apparently both he and the Spanish made him the governor of a place thousands of miles away from where they thought he was. I guess their highnesses in Spain at this point really had nothing to go on but Columbus’s word. At the start, no one had any reason to believe that Hispaniola wasn’t an island somewhere in the Indies. It was clearly not under the control of any known empire, so it was up for grabs. And Columbus’s contract with the Spanish crown called for him to be appointed Viceroy and Governor of any new lands he discovered. (The terms were generous since they did not really expect him to succeed.) > [@](#): > > Ignorance fought. I thought it was pretty much the insanely profitable spices. It was mainly the spices, along with silk and other trade items. But he was looking for anything of value, including gold. > [@](#): > > Idle curiosity: Is there any reason to believe that Orson Scott Card’s hypothesis in _Pastwatch_ is at all likely? The book supposes that Columbus was well aware of the real circumference of the earth, but that he shrank it considerably to make his voyages appear more likely to succeed. On the other hand, perhaps not, because then he would have known that wherever the hell he was was not Asia but somewhere a hell of a lot closer. Pretty much impossible. If Columbus would have tried to sail the entire distance to Asia, he and his men would have died of thirst and starvation, and he would have known that. (Of course, the men would have made him turn back before then, as they almost did on his actual voyage.) When Magellan actually did make the voyage across the Pacific, he lost many men to scurvy. Columbus was well aware of the other estimates of the circumference of the Earth, since his initial proposal to the Spanish crown was rejected because the experts had pointed that it was too far to sail to Asia. He cherry picked the available data to come up with a shorter estimated distance, but there is no reason to think that he hadn’t convinced himself as well. > [@](#): > > Another idle curiosity: How common was Columbus’s belief that he had found somewhere near Asia among the other sailors with him? There may not be any surviving records, but did they think he was wrong? nuts? kind of an idiot? Some of the men probably thought he was wacky at first, and as mentioned they tried to make him turn around shortly before his first landfall. But once they found land right where he had calculated Asia to be, most of them would have figured he was right. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/36 "2011-10-11T08:50:50Z")
I wonder if Dopers are familiar with [this PDF article based on a 1943 book claiming Columbus was a Greek nobleman](http://www.prometheas.org/Events_flyers/Christopher_Columbus.pdf) ? Is it all crackpottery? I will not try to summarize but a few excerpts may be suggestive: > [@](#): > > … it is generally conceded that Columbus did not know Italian… > … possibility that Columbus was in fact Greek … > … when Columbus became famous all over Europe after his four voyages of discovery, no one at the Centurione firm ever remarked on the earth-shaking accomplishment of the firm’s former clerk… > > Columbus’s claim that he was not the first admiral in his family, … that Columbus was “honorably descended” and sailed “for a long time” with “a famous man of his name and family,” a man who was called “Colon the Younger” > > … Finally, in 1905 another renowned Columbus scholar, Henry Vignaud … proved beyond all doubt that Colon the Younger was none other than George Paléologue de Bissipat, also called Georges le Grec; that he was a Byzantine prince related to the imperial family of the Palaiologi; and that he held a high rank in the French Navy, … > … a Genoese ship loaded with refugees that got away from Constantinople on May 29, 1453, the very day the city fell [to the Ottoman Turks] … > … in 1488, Columbus’s brother Bartholomew presented Columbus’s plan of discovery to Henry VII. How, asks Canoutas, did a poor Genoese wool-worker have access to Henry VII, King of England? The Dishypatos connection explains it, he contends… > > But Canoutas’s case hangs on a rather slender reed. It rests entirely on the supposed kinship of Columbus with Dishypatos, for which we have only one source: Ferdinando’s biography. If that kinship connection fails, Canoutas’s theory falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/37 "2011-10-11T09:09:12Z")
Shrug, I’ve heard claims of Columbus being Portuguese, Catalan, Neapolitan, Greek… the tradition is that he was Genoese, but it’s not as if people back then traveled with thumbprint-stamped, hologramed passports. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/38 "2011-10-11T09:50:59Z")
And I’ve heard theories that he was a _Marrano_, or converted Jew. I guess everyone wants a piece of him, for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/39 "2011-10-11T13:56:47Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I’m of half-Norwegian descent and you’re not offending me. Leif Ericson and the Norse discovered the “New World” about 492 years before Columbus but in terms of historical impact, it was a dead end. That’s what I was taught in the Seventies, too. The tech gap wasn’t big enough between the Vikings and the Indians, and there were a lot more of the Indians. The Vikings were overwhelmed and either forced, or chose, to go back east. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/40 "2011-10-11T14:03:52Z")
Bear in mind that the Vikings were crossing the sea in longboats from Greenland, which itself was barely inhabitable and almost impossible to reach. There’s no way they could have brought over more than a couple dozen people each year even if they wanted to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227.md?page=3)