# Discovering the 'New World' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227 "2011-10-10T21:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/61 "2011-10-12T17:58:27Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > One description I read said there were two different calculations of the size of the earth by the ancient Greeks. One was about 8,000 miles diameter, pretty accurate, and the other was about 4,000 miles. Columbus took the latter, and used Marco Polo’s account to determine how far away China was to the east, and determine it was only about 3,000 miles to the west of Spain. > > As mentioned above, those who believed the (correct) size of the earth to be the right number, pointed out the distance was impossible with the ships of the day; Instead of 3,000 miles it was 15000 miles. Columbus must have had the gift of gab to get some investment, but the Portugese were winning the race eastward, so it was a Spanish gamble and in the end turned out to be a good one. IIRC Columbus first tried the Portugese court who turned him down. Presumably he went to his death bed refusing to actually admit his error even if he had doubts. > > Daniel Boorstin in _ **Discoverers** _ (IIRC) discusses Marco Polo and the Mongol empire. The middle eastern empires imposed a massive markup on riches from the far east caravan trade, and made sure that foreigners were unwelcome. After the Genghis Kahn empire upset the whole balance of power for about 100 years, there were very few restrictions on foreigners across Asia and Marco Polo could travel east. Probably part of his observation was how incredibly cheap spices were in bulk in the far east, while they markup imposed by intermediaries meant they were worth more than gold in Europe. Hence the fantastic incentive to find a way to cut out the middleman. > > I assume Columbus felt there was a profit to be made in trading spices. Obviously, if he encountered an advanced civilization like China, gold would not be a case of “help yourself”. Similarly, slaves were never a major profit motive (in fact, the slave trade INTO Europe was not very big and did not grow). IIRC he conned a few locals into getting aboard the ship to show off to the court, but did not go heavily into the trade at first. > > As for the vikings, they had stories and legends about palces to the west, but by the 1400’s they could not overcome the growing ice packs from gloabl cooling to visit even their colonies in Greenland. SImilarly, current archaeology suggests that Basque fishermen and others knew about and exploited Grand Banks fishing, put ashore to cure the fish, well before Columbus. Like most good fishermen, they kept their favourite fishing spots secret. One suggestion is that John Cabot learned about this and so knew where to find Newfoundland. (Read “Sea of Slaughter” by Farley Mowat for an account of the incredible wealth of wildlife in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in the early days.) > > The Vikings or the Basque may have been first there, but COlumbus was first to publish, so to speak; he gets the credit. I am quite certain that Columbus knew of Greenland-he made a voyage to Iceland, around 1477 (a trading voyage where he would be picking up salted codfish). In Iceland, there were certainly people who knew of Greenland-the last recorded contact with Greenland was in 1470. So it is not impossible that Columbus even met some ex-Greenlanders. As for the disappearence of the Norse in Greenland-evidence suggests that sporadic contact with Norway/Iceland continued til about 1500-after which there is nothing. This suggests that the colonists left enmass- Steffansson belives that many were abducted by english pirates, or simply returned to Iceland. It is true that after 1500, Greenland became too cold to farm, and had the Norse stayed, they would have died. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/62 "2011-10-12T18:55:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No one doubted that there was land accessible across the Atlantic, they just thought it was too far to make the journey practical with the technology of the day. And they were right. The leading figures of the day didn’t doubt the principles involved (Earth round, west eventually gets you east, that much was widely accepted egg or no egg), but Columbus’ calculations on the distances involved sucked and he was the only one not to realize this. Had America not happened to be there, Columbus’ expedition would have died at sea with all hands thanks to their complete, stubborn moron of a captain. You know that cognitive bias where the more stupid and incompetent you are, the less you doubt yourself and the more you think you’re the most brilliant bulb in the room ? That’s Cristoforo Columbus to a T. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/63 "2011-10-12T19:29:38Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > This has always made me wonder if it wasn’t the Pope’s way of telling them to shut up. Since nobody knew there was land there ahead of time, and all parties knew the world was round, (and hence west WAS the east) it may have been intended as a minor sop to Portugal’s pride not intended to have any significance… which then turned out a bit differently than expected. Things got complicated after Magellan’s expedition arrived in the Far East and they had to demarcate things on the other side of the world as well, which was finally done by the Treaty of Zaragoza in 1529 giving the Moluccas to Portugal and the Philippines to Spain. ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/64 "2011-10-12T20:27:24Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …SImilarly, current archaeology suggests that Basque fishermen and others knew about and exploited Grand Banks fishing, put ashore to cure the fish, well before Columbus. Do you have a cite for this? A cursory google search doesn’t bring up anything. Is there hard evidence now? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/65 "2011-10-12T20:30:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What did Colombus bring along to trade? Mostly cheap crap (cloth, glass, beads, and bells) that the Chinese would have laughed at, if Columbus had actually reached China. Vasco da Gama had the same problem upon reaching India; wealthy Indian merchants laughed at his trade goods and da Gama returned home with less cargo than he expected–but still enough to prove the value of the trade. In defense of Columbus, his first voyage was in the nature of recon; he had no idea of the current state of Asian civilization or which goods would be most valuable. After he found out, he could return. It turned out his cheap crap was valuable after all, since he was trading with Caribbean hunter-gatherers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/66 "2011-10-12T20:30:43Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am quite certain that Columbus knew of Greenland-he made a voyage to Iceland, around 1477 (a trading voyage where he would be picking up salted codfish)… I’d never heard of this, either. A friendly request… gotta cite? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/67 "2011-10-12T21:23:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d never heard of this, either. A friendly request… gotta cite? Columbus [said he went to Iceland](http://www.jstor.org/pss/1796276), and Samuel Eliot Morison among others believed him. However I disagree with everything else **ralph124c** said about it. The last well-documented contact between Europe and Greenland was in 1410, there is no evidence that any Greenland survivors traveled to Iceland or anywhere else, and it’s unlikely Columbus heard anything about Greenland unless he attended saga recitals with a translator. If he did hear anything, it was likely in the nature of vague stories that sailors told about a million fictitious Atlantic islands. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/68 "2011-10-12T21:46:24Z")
Thanks! That was a new one on me. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/69 "2011-10-26T06:32:05Z")
> [@Dahu](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? A cursory google search doesn’t bring up anything. Is there hard evidence now? Again, just my memory. IIRC - Scientific American I think it was had an article on items found in the area of Newfoundland - Labrador that indicated well-established fish curing camps, with things like Basque clay tiles. The dating put it at 1500 or earlier. For fascinating trivia about the region (and NA wildlife in general) read Farley Mowat’s “Sea of Slaughter”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/70 "2011-10-26T07:32:29Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That’s what I was taught in the Seventies, too. The tech gap wasn’t big enough between the Vikings and the Indians, and there were a lot more of the Indians. The Vikings were overwhelmed and either forced, or chose, to go back east. I think the key factor was that the Viking settlements had no support base. Leif Ericson and Erik Thorvaldsson weren’t sailing on behalf of Iceland or Norway - they basically represented nobody but themselves. The only settlers and supplies they could bring to America were those they could personally obtain. The latter successful colonization programs were supported by Spain or Portugal or England or France. People like Columbus had kingdoms behind them that were ready to put resources into any discoveries that looked promising. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/71 "2011-10-26T07:37:35Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > This has always made me wonder if it wasn’t the Pope’s way of telling them to shut up. Since nobody knew there was land there ahead of time, and all parties knew the world was round, (and hence west WAS the east) it may have been intended as a minor sop to Portugal’s pride not intended to have any significance… which then turned out a bit differently than expected. No, the idea was that the dividing line was thought to separate the Old World and the New. Spain was supposed to get the Americas and Portugal was supposed to get Africa and India. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/72 "2011-10-26T20:16:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > When Magellan finally reached Asia by sailing west as Columbus had proposed, he first found cultures in the Philippines that were not too different a level from those found by Columbus. So Columbus’s idea that he was in an outlying region of Asia was not unreasonable at first. It became so after more extensive exploration began to demonstrate the true state of affairs. How did Columbus react to Magellan’s trip? I’m assuming he was still alive: “Guess I didn’t reach Asia after all?” ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/73 "2011-10-26T20:41:41Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > How did Columbus react to Magellan’s trip? I’m assuming he was still alive: “Guess I didn’t reach Asia after all?” He was dead, Columbus died in 1506 and Magellan started his trip in 1519. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/74 "2011-10-26T21:58:05Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > He was dead, Columbus died in 1506 and Magellan started his trip in 1519. Oh. I suppose I could’ve looked that up. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/75 "2011-10-26T22:23:21Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I’m in my mid-50’s and teachers hinted that the Vikings may have skirted Canada well before Columbus got there, but it was downplayed as inconsequential (not meaning to offend any Vikings on the board). Somewhere, Dio is blaming the officials for Columbus’ fame. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/76 "2011-10-26T23:07:37Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > How did Columbus react to Magellan’s trip? I’m assuming he was still alive: “Guess I didn’t reach Asia after all?” Magellan wasn’t even still alive by the time his expedition reached Asia proper, since he was killed in the Philippines. He didn’t even make it as far as the Spice Islands. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/77 "2011-10-27T00:17:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Magellan wasn’t even still alive by the time his expedition reached Asia proper, since he was killed in the Philippines. He didn’t even make it as far as the Spice Islands. How did he buy the farm? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/78 "2011-10-27T01:56:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How did he buy the farm? He allied himself with a local chieftain who had converted to Christianity, and then was persuaded to help him in an attack on the chieftain’s enemies. He was killed in the attack as he waded ashore. Wiki quotes [the account:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan) > [@](#): > > When morning came, forty-nine of us leaped into the water up to our thighs, and walked through water for more than two cross-bow flights before we could reach the shore. The boats could not approach nearer because of certain rocks in the water. The other eleven men remained behind to guard the boats. When we reached land, [the natives] had formed in three divisions to the number of more than one thousand five hundred people. When they saw us, they charged down upon us with exceeding loud cries… The musketeers and crossbow-men shot from a distance for about a half-hour, but uselessly… Recognizing the captain, so many turned upon him that they knocked his helmet off his head twice… A native hurled a bamboo spear into the captain’s face, but the latter immediately killed him with his lance, which he left in the native’s body. Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger. That caused the captain to fall face downward, when immediately they rushed upon him with iron and bamboo spears and with their cutlasses, until they killed our mirror, our light, our comfort, and our true guide. When they wounded him, he turned back many times to see whether we were all in the boats. Thereupon, beholding him dead, we, wounded, retreated, as best we could, to the boats, which were already pulling off. It was a stupid way for him to get himself killed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/79 "2011-10-27T02:23:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > . > > It was a stupid way for him to get himself killed. Yes, it was. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227/80 "2011-10-27T03:01:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Yes, it was. Not quite as stupid as Captain Cook, who was killed in Hawaii in a squabble over a stolen ship’s boat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discovering-the-new-world/599227.md?page=5)