# Discrimination against Atheists in the US. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915 "2003-12-04T11:33:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/41 "2003-12-05T02:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*That wouldn’t be analogous at all – a _fairer_ analogy would be asking, how often does one hear “You couldn’t survive that experience without _a_ belief in God”? No? > > **MEBuckner** , you speak like this has been some kind of hijack, apologies from me if that is not so, I certainly didn’t mean it to be. \*\* WRT the quote in question, the best analogy would be “It is my firm belief that no one can survive that experience without a belief in God.” To which I, as an atheist, would respond: “That’s nice. How about them Yankees?” ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/42 "2003-12-05T02:34:30Z")
**John Mace** , I don’t see any meaningful difference between your distinctions. His opinion is that people without faith cannot be the president, regardless of whether he adds a qualifier or not. It does not change the fact that he believes that if you don’t believe in Jesus you won’t be a good president. “You can’t be a good parent if you’re a man.” “It is my opinion you can’t be a good parent if you’re a man.” Both sentences mean _exactly_ the same thing, and bleating “it’s only my opinion!” doesn’t change the fact that it’s ignorant and insulting. You wouldn’t say it as a fact if you didn’t believe it. By adding a qualifier it’s saying _at best_ “I know it’s not a fact, but I believe it anyway.” Pretty damning either way, AFAIC. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/43 "2003-12-05T03:10:04Z")
DesertGeezer–Madalyn O’Hair was murdered because of some bizarre embezzlement plot, not her atheism. And her murder is very much solved: > [@](#): > > In August 1995, Madalyn (then 76), along with her son, Jon (40), and granddaughter, Robin (30), vanished from their home, reportedly with breakfast still cooking, and were never seen again. Tax returns filed by groups affiliated with American Atheists suggest that Jon took $629,500 of organization money with him, and there were further rumors of Madalyn having stashed millions in overseas accounts over the years. Had the threesome met with foul play? Had they absconded with ill-gotten proceeds? > > In June 2000 a man named Gary Karr was convicted of conspiracy to commit extortion for his alleged participation in a plot to kidnap and kill Ms. O’Hair and her children for their money. As part of a plea bargain, in early 2001 David Waters led police to a burial site where the remains of three bodies were found, and in March 2001 two of the bodies were identified as those of O’Hair and her granddaughter. Waters is already serving a 60-year state prison term for bilking O’Hair’s American Atheists organization out of $54,000. He now faces an additional 20-year for “conspiracy to interfere with commerce by robbery and extortion.” Technically, no one will ever be charged with these murders, but the killers are behind bars on other charges. From [http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/fcc.htm](http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/fcc.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/44 "2003-12-05T03:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoneburg \* > Stories about weird little laws in the US pop up everywhere. Women not being allowed to eat bananas in public, it being ok to beat your spouse if you do it at the courthouse steps, moose disallowed from making love within city limits and whatnot. Is there some effort being made to “clean up” these quirky things or is it judged too unimportant? Weird **little** laws? It’s the state Constitution! You don’t think it might be a little, you know, important? ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/45 "2003-12-05T04:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > As for me I go out of my way to discriminate against atheists. I discriminate against racists. I discriminate against hate mongers and child molesters, and I go out of my way to discriminate against self-centered atheists. Are you saying you are particularly harsh on “self-centered atheists” (whatever they are), even more than child molesters? Coz you have them mentioned specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/46 "2003-12-05T04:23:10Z")
Caution: Some of the provisions which “discriminate” against atheists have been superseded. If you follow the link to the Massachusetts Constitution in the OP, it’s clear that the language about equal protection applying only to Christians has been superseded by amendment. Most state constitutions, like the federal, accumulate the amendments at the end rather than incorporating them into the body of the text. To cite the amended provisions as if they are still in force would be like quoting the parts about “persons held to servitude” to argue that the U.S. Constitution still countenances slavery _today_. ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/47 "2003-12-05T04:34:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*As for me I go out of my way to discriminate against atheists. I discriminate against racists. I discriminate against hate mongers and child molesters, and I go out of my way to discriminate against self-centered atheists. > > It is my God given right. \*\* I discriminate against hate mongers too, thus I don’t like you Milum. One who compares people of different religious persuasions to child-molesters and racists is certainly a hate monger. I also discriminate against those who do not back up their argument logically. Please explain how atheists are by their nature self-centered as compared to theists. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/48 "2003-12-05T07:25:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there some effort being made to “clean up” these quirky things or is it judged too unimportant? You got it in two. Given that it’s often hard to pass a bill that both parties agree to unanimously without someone tacking on a controversial provision or otherwise turning the whole affair into another long winded waste of time, there is little political will to go around “correcting” silly laws that nobody enforces anyway, have already been superceded by later laws, or have been stuck down by courts. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/49 "2003-12-05T14:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoneburg \* > \*\*Stories about weird little laws in the US pop up everywhere. Women not being allowed to eat bananas in public, … Is there some effort being made to “clean up” these quirky things or is it judged too unimportant? \*\* In most cases these are just urban legends. Snopes covers it [here.](http://snopes.com/legal/arizona.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/50 "2003-12-05T15:32:25Z")
“Correcting” a state _Constitution_ takes a special procedure. If it is done by legislative initiative, it involves either a supermajority of the legislature passing it, or two successive distinctly-elected assemblies passing it, and THEN submitting it to the voters for ratification. **jklann** also points out, very appropriately, that various states, like the Federal government, do NOT strike the original text of the constitution when amending it. They just add newer articles that supercede the old text. These articles would be unenforceable. However, courts tend to limit the initiative in issuing a challenge to them to persons able to claim an _actual_ harm was done to them – e.g. the gentleman who ran for Governor and the court told him to wait until someone actually tried to prevent him from taking office. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/51 "2003-12-05T18:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > As for me I go out of my way to discriminate against atheists. I discriminate against racists. I discriminate against hate mongers and child molesters, and I go out of my way to discriminate against self-centered atheists. > > It is my God given right. Do you think it should be against the law for an atheist to hold elected office? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > **MEBuckner** , you speak like this has been some kind of hijack, apologies from me if that is not so, I certainly didn’t mean it to be. I didn’t mean to sound excessively snippy, but the whole Rob Sherman/G.H.W. Bush thing has been hashed out several times now on the SDMB, and it is sort of a different issue from the one raised by **minega** in starting this thread. To those pointing out the difficulty of amending state constitutions (and at least some of the anti-atheist provisions have _not_ been repealed, although they may have been rendered null by court decisions): Do you think the same arguments would be made against a state constitutional provision barring Jews or Roman Catholics from holding office? Even if a court decision had rendered such a provision moot, I rather suspect there would still be a strong drive to have it repealed. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/52 "2003-12-05T20:29:58Z")
Thank you Opus1 for straigtening DesertGeezer out. I thought he was wrong but am at work and don’t have a lot of time to search. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/53 "2003-12-05T20:58:55Z")
**Titobenito** > [@](#): > > I discriminate against hate mongers too, thus I don’t like you Milum. One who compares people of different religious persuasions to child-molesters and racists is certainly a hate monger. I also discriminate against those who do not back up their argument logically. Please explain how atheists are by their nature self-centered as compared to theists. I’m hurt, **Titobenito** , I like you. But I do wonder why you call me a hate monger. Do you have trouble with the english language? The act of discriminating is not hating, discrimination against beliefs that impede the achivement of a worthwhile existence is a most commendable act and should be encouraged by all. And why, you ask, are atheists self centered? God only knows, but it is obvious that they are. Why, I ask you, do they preach and pitch their non-message of first cause and creation to all who will listen and condemn those who don’t agree. I think that their social developement has somehow gone awry and so they think that if they admit to the possibility of a deity, even an symbolic one, their reign on earth might end and they would then be forsed to come down to the community of man and become mortal. Besides, most atheists are unpleasant. And no, **Mr. Bruckner** , I have no objection to an avowed atheist public holding office. That’s silly. Atheism is just a non-belief non-system analogous to the choice one makes when one decides not to own a dog. And although atheism marks one as not the brightest turtle in the tank, I wouldn’t hesitate to vote for an atheist for public office. The bible-toting polititians we elect year after year aren’t very bright either. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/54 "2003-12-05T21:35:09Z")
**Milum** how do you come to the conclusion that “atheism marks one as not the brightest turtle in the tank” ? Would you, expect an Atheist to be more or less intelligent, on average, to a follower of Sun Myung Moon? What about compared to a Scientologist, or Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Catholic, or a Protestant? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/55 "2003-12-05T22:10:31Z")
So, a self-described “devout Christian” starts a thread on provisions of state constitutions in the U.S. which clearly and explicitly deny the equal civil and political rights of atheists based on their beliefs, and **Milum** –who now claims to be opposed to such anti-atheist legal bigotry–jumps into the thread to gratuitously bash atheists. And he has the gall to call _us_ “self-centered”. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/56 "2003-12-05T22:20:10Z")
**Bippy the Beardless** > [@](#): > > Milum how do you come to the conclusion that “atheism marks one as not the brightest turtle in the tank” ? > Would you, expect an Atheist to be more or less intelligent, on average, to a follower of Sun Myung Moon? Ah yes, **Bippy** , I hesitated to include the answer to your question in my last post because I was afraid I would be accused of stating the obvious, so I am glad you asked. **Atheists** are dumb because they are not smart. If they were smart they would be\*\*\* agnostics\*\*\*. Follow the logic… Something exists. The human mind can’t concieve of something coming from nothing. An _ **agnostic** _ would simply say that it is impossible to understand how something came from nothing. **Atheists** deny the existence of a creator, a primecause, a mathematical process, or anything, that could somehow make something. Now that’s dumb. But don’t underestimate **atheists**. They are are **arrogant** and think they know it all. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/57 "2003-12-05T22:25:43Z")
“The human mind can’t concieve of something coming from nothing.” Ah, yes, the atheists are the stupid ones… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/58 "2003-12-05T22:29:14Z")
**Milum** , you should talk to the quantum physicists about the quantum foam. These dummies actually think something comes from nothing! Go set 'em straight. ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/59 "2003-12-05T22:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > Now that’s dumb. > But don’t underestimate **atheists**. > They are are **arrogant** and think they know it all. \*\* Reminds me of someone. > [@](#): > > Why, I ask you, do they preach and pitch their non-message of first cause and creation to all who will listen and condemn those who don’t agree. Never have done any of those things, mostly because I really don’t care much for what others beleive. > [@](#): > > And although atheism marks one as not the brightest turtle in the tank, Thats because we don’t live in a tank, we live in ponds. > [@](#): > > But I do wonder why you call me a hate monger. Do you have trouble with the english language? No, I don’t have a problem with the **E** nglish language. I still think comparing atheists to child molesters and racists definately hints of hate mongering. > [@](#): > > I’m hurt, Titobenito, I like you Lastly, although I am truely sorry you are hurt, I still don’t like you. Mostly for every reason you claim for why you dislike atheists. Also, if your posts are a parody of someone with poor logic, it’s brilliant. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915/60 "2003-12-05T23:53:02Z")
\*\* Revtim\*\* > [@](#): > > Milum, you should talk to the quantum physicists about the quantum foam. These dummies actually think something comes from nothing! :)\_\_ Oh do they now, **Revtim** , say… perhaps those quantun dummies told you how they did it and you can tell all the atheists here how its done. Then maybe our atheists here will make you and them quantum theorists their official gods and then they can stop being bitter, unhappy, self-centered atheists.\_\_ 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discrimination-against-atheists-in-the-us/216915.md?page=4)