# "Discussion" between intelligent liberal and upright troglodyte conservative **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179 "2017-06-30T03:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/21 "2017-07-05T17:41:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It was for Josh Randall. Inoperable cancer according to expensive US doctors. Mexican surgeon said, “Yeah, sure, no problem, 50 bucks.” Is that what the surgeon said? Or did the surgeon explain the risks and McQueen gave his approval? If you are going to offer opinions on the quality of medical care, especially surgical procedures, in Mexico, could you please post actual facts instead of prejudicial opinions based on who knows what? Do you have even the slightest idea of what one must do to become a board certified surgeon here? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/22 "2017-07-05T18:18:07Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Is that what the surgeon said? Or did the surgeon explain the risks and McQueen gave his approval? That was the impression I received reading an article about McQueen some years ago. My apologies for offending you. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/23 "2017-07-05T19:40:40Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That’s very smart. Add in ‘permit Medicare to negotiate prices with the pharmaceutical industry’ and we’d be in very good shape to see massive improvements in both health and efficient delivery of healthcare. This is important. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/24 "2017-07-07T16:33:08Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > People need to stop thinking that single-digit percent improvements are irrelevant. Healthcare is a complex enough system that there are no silver bullets. If that 2.4% can be cut in half, that’s a huge thing. Find another 20 items like it and we’ll be in pretty good shape. As they say: a billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money. That 2.4% is not free. Its not simply getting rid of waste fraud and abuse. Its truncating the rights of medical malpractice victims to the benefit of medical insurance companies. In Virginia, the medical malpractice cap not only caps pain and suffering, it also caps actual economic damage. The result has not be a huge decrease in defensive medicine because it turns out that doctors will practice defensive medicine even if their potential liability is capped because it costs them nothing to practice defensive medicine and there is still a penalty for screwing up even if that penalty is capped. Ahhh, but the lower awards will result in lower premiums, amirite? THe evidence does not really support this conclusion. There may be an effect but it is eclipsed by the effect of the consolidation of medical practices into larger practices with more bargaining power and the entry of more med mal insurance companies into an otherwise non-competitive market. You want to reduce the cost of med mal on health care, then you should probably reform the med mal insruance market. Capping damages might make sense AFTER you do that but right now your pouring more water into a bucket without a bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/25 "2017-07-07T16:40:35Z")
Control of drug prices is the most important issue. For example, I take Januvia, which is a Diabetes med. In Canada, this is $107 a month. In the USA, they charge me $450 a month, or over 4x the price in Canada. There is zero justification for this other than greed and corruption. Their costs aren’t higher and no, they’re not using it to pay for important research. My mother just had to buy two more Epipens. The price increases and gouging on that are unconscionable, but our government (which developed it for the military) allows this to happen. The cost of those things is under $10 and there are no associated development costs to justify. It is just greed and lobbying expenses (read: Corruption). ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/26 "2017-07-07T17:20:29Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am not a true conservative but liberals have to step up their game. ObamaCare isn’t just a plan that needs some tweaks, it is a fucking disaster. Liberals keep focusing on the 20 million people or so that got (mostly crappy) subsidized health insurance from it but that isn’t a good measure. What they are ignoring are the vastly larger numbers of other people (especially the middle class) that had their health insurance premiums skyrocket AND their health insurance effectively disabled because of the massive proliferation of high-deductible plans. In other words, people like me have to pay thousands of dollars a year for health insurance now but you can’t actually use it for anything short of a major car accident. That wasn’t anything like what was advertised. Health care is more unaffordable than ever for the people that actually pay for everyone else and that isn’t right. > > Where the Left and liberals are going wrong is that they should just acknowledge this reality and try to come up with a plan of their own that covers more people AND saves money. They aren’t doing that right now. Republicans are trying to. Their plan sucks too but at least they are putting in the effort to come up with something. Otherwise, the whole system is going to collapse even more than it already has. > > If you have a better plan, let’s hear it but it better be backed up with realistic numbers and not just some pipe dream. I can promise you that conservatives would love to wash their hands of this problem as much as anyone. Very well stated. I’d take it one step past that - get the government OUT of healthcare insurance completely. Remove the barriers to buying insurance across state lines. It’s mind-boggling how many problems that simple solution will fix. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/27 "2017-07-07T17:51:21Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Very well stated. I’d take it one step past that - get the government OUT of healthcare insurance completely. Remove the barriers to buying insurance across state lines. It’s mind-boggling how many problems that simple solution will fix. What problems does this fix? It’s an evergreen on the right, but I think most (certainly a lot) insurance companies already sell in all states. Having to meet 50 sets of requirements undoubtedly drives up costs a bit, but I’m going to guess it is a rounding error. And besides, I thought conservatives were all in favor of “state’s rights” - why should New York set the standards for insurance in California? You guys are already upset with the ACA setting nationwide minimum coverage requirements - why are they better if set nationwide by a single state, instead? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/28 "2017-07-07T18:08:33Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Very well stated. I’d take it one step past that - get the government OUT of healthcare insurance completely. Remove the barriers to buying insurance across state lines. It’s mind-boggling how many problems that simple solution will fix. Again, you’re a moron. The pinkos at the American Academy of Actuaries say: > [@](#): > > As high health costs persist, insurance affordability remains a challenge for many employers and individuals. **However, allowing insurers to sell coverage across state lines could result in unintended consequences such as market segmentation that could threaten the viability of insurers licensed in states with strict benefit coverage, issue, or rating rules. The ability for high-risk individuals to obtain coverage could be compromised as a result**. If rules governing insurance are consistent across the states, as they are under the ACA, market segmentation could be minimized. **However, potential premium savings would also be minimal, as premiums would continue to reflect local health care costs, regardless of location of the insurer.** ETA: Not to mention [This guy](http://www.healthpol.com/), who consults for insurance companies, said this: > [@](#): > > I gave a speech to 750 health insurance brokers and consultants in DC last week. > > When selling health insurance across state lines, something Trump and a number of other Republican presidential candidates have been pushing, was mentioned **the audience literally laughed**. That’s what health insurance professionals who spend their days in the market think of it! This is about as dumb an insurance “reform” idea as has ever been proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/29 "2017-07-07T20:46:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Capping damages might make sense AFTER you do that but right now your pouring more water into a bucket without a bottom. Where did I say anything about capping damages? It’s clear from the stats that defensive medicine is the largest part of the problem. I’d suggest going after that more directly. One possibility is to create a board whose sole purpose is to research best practices for the most common medical procedures. The board’s findings would be considered the gold standard for medicine in the US, and be used as the basis for doctor reimbursement. This wouldn’t be an instant “get out of jail free card”, but it would be a strong defense. Doctor gets sued for malpractice, lawyers point out that the doctor followed known best practices, and so unless there’s some other incompetence going on there’s no case. There could be further benefits, such as not using drugs which themselves may cause health problems. Pushing a too aggressive treatment is probably safer in terms of lawsuits but worse for the patient, and definitely higher cost. A public set of best practices can reduce this problem. Done right, this could also reduce the problem of overprescription of antibiotics. You want something-cillin for your rhinovirus? Sorry, we’re not writing a prescription for that. And we certainly aren’t paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/30 "2017-07-08T00:03:01Z")
I’m sure that malpractice is the major problem to physicians, but is it a major problem of insurance costs? I thought the deal was that when they heard, “Everyone must have insurance” the companies would make more money at the present rates. But they thought, “Everyone must have insurance”, they thought, “Wow! Now we can charge whatever we want!” I believe that price controls on insurance and medical costs would be the best answer, but medical industry owns too many congresspeople for that. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/31 "2017-07-08T03:27:00Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > What problems does this fix? It’s an evergreen on the right, but I think most (certainly a lot) insurance companies already sell in all states. > > Having to meet 50 sets of requirements undoubtedly drives up costs a bit, but I’m going to guess it is a rounding error. > > And besides, I thought conservatives were all in favor of “state’s rights” - why should New York set the standards for insurance in California? You guys are already upset with the ACA setting nationwide minimum coverage requirements - why are they better if set nationwide by a single state, instead? It’s called competition. It’s what drives the free market. If I can go online to search for health insurance and find several policies in-state that pretty much cost the same and one policy out-of-state that is a much lower premium, guess which one I’m going to sign up for? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/32 "2017-07-08T03:28:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Again, you’re a moron. Fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/33 "2017-07-08T03:37:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am not a true conservative but liberals have to step up their game. ObamaCare isn’t just a plan that needs some tweaks, it is a fucking disaster. Liberals keep focusing on the 20 million people or so that got (mostly crappy) subsidized health insurance from it but that isn’t a good measure. What they are ignoring are the vastly larger numbers of other people (especially the middle class) that had their health insurance premiums skyrocket AND their health insurance effectively disabled because of the massive proliferation of high-deductible plans. In other words, people like me have to pay thousands of dollars a year for health insurance now but you can’t actually use it for anything short of a major car accident. That wasn’t anything like what was advertised. Health care is more unaffordable than ever for the people that actually pay for everyone else and that isn’t right. > > Where the Left and liberals are going wrong is that they should just acknowledge this reality and try to come up with a plan of their own that covers more people AND saves money. They aren’t doing that right now. Republicans are trying to. Their plan sucks too but at least they are putting in the effort to come up with something. Otherwise, the whole system is going to collapse even more than it already has. > > If you have a better plan, let’s hear it but it better be backed up with realistic numbers and not just some pipe dream. I can promise you that conservatives would love to wash their hands of this problem as much as anyone. Agreed – 100%. Liberals should just stop sucking conservative balls and come up with a Canada styled system or Medicare for all that would provide basic services for everyone and yet allow, say, an AFLAC or someone else to come in and allow for better care for those who can afford it. Obama wasn’t in a position to deliver the goods in 2009 because, ironically, the FDR New Deal era legislation prevented most Americans from feeling just how bad a real financial crisis can be. Trust me when I say that the next time it happens…there will be no doubt. America will go full on mother fucking hardcore leftist. Because 80% of the country will either be destitute or financially distressed. That’s what happened in 1932 and a generation and a half of Americans never forgot it, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/34 "2017-07-08T11:02:23Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It’s called competition. It’s what drives the free market. If I can go online to search for health insurance and find several policies in-state that pretty much cost the same and one policy out-of-state that is a much lower premium, guess which one I’m going to sign up for? The insurance actuaries I quoted have concluded that your assumption that less competition in this market isn’t actually a driver of costs. It’s like if I shop for Rolexes online. Just because I can shop among hundreds of watch sellers online, doesn’t mean that competition is going to cut the cost of the watch in half. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/35 "2017-07-08T13:24:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It’s called competition. It’s what drives the free market. If I can go online to search for health insurance and find several policies in-state that pretty much cost the same and one policy out-of-state that is a much lower premium, guess which one I’m going to sign up for? And why is the out-of-state company currently not offering that cheaper policy in my state? Probably because it doesn’t meet whatever standards my state has set in place for selling insurance here. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/36 "2017-07-08T13:32:53Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > And why is the out-of-state company currently not offering that cheaper policy in my state? Probably because it doesn’t meet whatever standards my state has set in place for selling insurance here. Are the standards set up to benefit consumers or the state’s insurance companies? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/37 "2017-07-08T15:05:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Single payer would cause some government regulations over how much drugs and health care costs. And that would be a bad thing … How? After Bro pharma Shkreli pulled his stunt in grossly raising prices “just because”, maybe more control is justified. And I don’t want to hear the party line about the “cost of research” bullshit. It’s been over-used for too long. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/38 "2017-07-08T15:07:55Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Liberals should just stop sucking conservative balls and come up with a Canada styled system or Medicare for all that would provide basic services for everyone and yet allow, say, an AFLAC or someone else to come in and allow for better care for those who can afford it. Won’t happen. Repubs want to trash it all and give themselves and their buddies a big tax break instead. By any means necessary. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/39 "2017-07-08T15:40:09Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Won’t happen. Repubs want to trash it all and give themselves and their buddies a big tax break instead. By any means necessary. The Affordable Care Act was based on the Massachusetts Republican plan to encourage Republicans to vote for it. I wondered at the time if Obama hoped that Republican criticism of the ACA would induce them to improve or replace it with something better for citizens. I was overly optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179/40 "2017-07-09T12:54:52Z")
There is no solution to the healthcare problem that won’t temporarily destroy healthcare as we know it today. Every aspect of medicine is too expensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-between-intelligent-liberal-and-upright-troglodyte-conservative/790179.md?page=3)