# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1981 "2024-10-24T13:38:53Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Israel has again and again offered to withdraw from both the West Bank and Gaza and to recognize a Palestinian state > > Oh come now. Not even you believe that. Not even I believe in documented historical fact? What the fuck are you on about? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1982 "2024-10-24T13:39:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Oh, I’m sure if you make sure they know how anti-Zionist you are, they’ll know you’re one of the good Jews. After all, they’re not antisemitic, right? Just anti Zionist? > > You know that’s nonsense - to that sort I will be forever a Jew. That’s the special hell of being of questionable Jewishness - there are plenty of Jews who will happily abandon you, and the enemies of Jews will still oppress and kill you. As the old joke goes: a Bundists and a Zionist walk into a bar. The bartender says, “No Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1983 "2024-10-24T13:40:07Z")
It is the nature of human beings to fight territorial wars. There are few if any living people whose ancestors don’t include people driven off their land by conquerors. And few whose ancestors didn’t drive sometime else off their land. Most of us descend from both of those. I believe in human rights for living humans. I don’t believe in attempting to unravel every territorial wars ever fought. A two state solution (which could be two states that don’t get along well) would be a huge improvement from what we have today. Especially if Israel would stop grabbing more and more land in what’s left of Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1984 "2024-10-24T13:46:59Z")
@puzzlegal I don’t see the Palestinians giving up their right of return to sign up for a two state solution. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1985 "2024-10-24T13:47:03Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Keep propping up Iran, you are doing a great job. They did his country a great favor by using their Houthi pirates to rerout huge portions of international shipping around the Cape, AND the leading political party’s debts _mysteriously disappeared_ right when SA brought the ICC case against Israel. A real “I’ll scratch your back, you’ll take my enemies to international criminal court” moment. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1986 "2024-10-24T13:48:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I doubt it, because I never see boycotts of Turkey or college protests screaming that Erdogan drinks the blood of children. You’d better believe I have seen pro-Armenian protests in college campuses. Don’t recall that anyone was on about Erdogan. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Nope I was specifically referring to people _born and raised_ in Israel who were visiting the US (and in once case married an American) and the way some of them referred to Palestinians. It was both loathsome to see such hatred and a little scary. They were completely irrational on the subject, even more so than the standard bigot I’ve encountered. Israel certainly does not lack super rabid racists nor run-of-the-mill bigots, but is it any better or worse than any random country? I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1987 "2024-10-24T13:48:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > but they might also have better PR with the rest of the world. 🤣 That and $5 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. I’ve seen the good that “PR with the rest of the world” does. I’ll take the IDF 7 days a week. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1988 "2024-10-24T13:50:27Z")
I just explained how a two state solution could respect the right of return. Apparently you missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1989 "2024-10-24T13:50:42Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > @puzzlegal I don’t see the Palestinians giving up their right of return to sign up for a two state solution If there’s just gonna be one state, then - sorry, not sorry - that state will be Israel. I’d prefer a two state solution, but if the Palestinians won’t agree to that, too bad so sad, Israel isn’t going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1990 "2024-10-24T13:56:31Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > @puzzlegal I don’t see the Palestinians giving up their right of return to sign up for a two state solution. And i don’t see the Israelis giving up the land where they were born. And where would they even go? They surely couldn’t stay in a state run by Palestinians who (largely) wish them dead. So i guess you are saying a permanent state of war, unless one side exterminates the other. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1991 "2024-10-24T13:58:27Z")
There doesn’t have to be a conflict, depending on the details. A two state solution could be worked out that allows Palestinians two return to their ancestral communities without evicting Israelis (except, perhaps, recent settlers, but fuck them). ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1992 "2024-10-24T14:17:11Z")
I missed nothing, thank you very much. What you propose is something of an approximation fulfilling the Palestinians’ rights without full franchise throughout all of Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1993 "2024-10-24T14:17:17Z")
In the US, you can take legal title to land by adverse possession (basically the civil version of taking land by conquest). The details vary by state, but you generally need to hold the land for 5-30 years. > **[Adverse possession](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession)** > > Adverse possession in common law, and the related civil law concept of usucaption (also acquisitive prescription or prescriptive acquisition), are legal mechanisms under which a person who does not have legal title to a piece of property, usually real property, may acquire legal ownership based on continuous possession or occupation without the permission (licence) of its legal owner. > It is sometimes colloquially described as squatter's rights, a term associated with occupation without legal ... Israel has held much of that land since 1948. That’s not than 70 years and multiple generations of people born in the state of Israel. I’m not sure what exact time makes sense for nations. There are still Jewish families who have keys to houses in Spain, too, but they aren’t getting those back. A lot of Palestinians aren’t going “back” (to a land their great grandparents left, in some cases). We need to look forward and try to find a path to human rights for those people. Both Israelis and Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1994 "2024-10-24T14:18:12Z")
Yeah, unfortunately that mindset it the very crux of the problem in this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1995 "2024-10-24T14:19:46Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Also not a ton of money pouring in from the Kurds or Turkey to fund the protests on either side. Like you say - on _either_ side. But it’s OK when the Zionists do it. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Keep propping up Iran, you are doing a great job. Keep licking Bibi’s taint, peace will surely follow. > [@Babale](#): > > his country […]the leading political party I know it’s been pointed out to you before, but not everyone is as fervently willing as you Israel cheerleaders to excuse whatever their governments do just because of their naked tribalism. I can be against Israel’s actions and yet also against my own government and against Iran. Imagine! Start a thread on what a joke SA involvement in Putin’s recent little family gathering was, I’ll be right there (even though I consider BRICS overall a great idea). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1996 "2024-10-24T14:20:30Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > I missed nothing, thank you very much. > > What you propose is something of an approximation fulfilling the Palestinians’ rights without full franchise throughout all of Palestine. Ahh, I see. I’m more interested in human rights for all than in destroying Israel. Your position totally makes sense if destroying Israel is more important to you than Palestinian human rights. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1997 "2024-10-24T14:20:51Z")
That’s what it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1998 "2024-10-24T14:23:34Z")
Please, how is this germane to the topic, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1999 "2024-10-24T14:27:36Z")
How is the concept that “people sometimes lose rights to land despite not ever giving anyone else permission to take that land” germane to the war between Israel and Palestine? Really? I’m afraid i have stuff i need to do and don’t have time to walk you through that. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2000 "2024-10-24T14:29:32Z")
Your continuous aspersions are asinine and tiresome. It reveals the vacuousness of your arguments. Do you still beat your wife, by the way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=101)