# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 107
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2121 "2024-10-26T01:33:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas. Hamas. Hamas. Hamas. Hamas. …says it all, really. This is the sum total of their argument. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2122 "2024-10-26T01:36:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …apart from the statement from the IDF spokesperson Are you fucking stupid? The IDF collected the evidence; it then communicated it using a spokesperson. What other source of evidence than the stuff the spokesperson said and the stuff that the IDF found in Hamas’ HQ would you possibly expect? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2123 "2024-10-26T01:37:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > His handlers in Teheran are probably having a hard time getting a hold of him at the moment… …well over a hundred journalist have been killed in Gaza since the start of the war. That’s more journalists than America lost in World War 2. More than Vietnam. I’m happy to go toe-to-toe here with you on the facts. But the reality is that you’ve got no facts. So cheap pot-shots is all you’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2124 "2024-10-26T01:38:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The IDF collected the evidence; it then communicated it using a spokesperson. …what evidence did they collect? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2125 "2024-10-26T01:41:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That’s more journalists than America lost in World War 2. I don’t believe there were many American journalists working behind German lines and taking instructions from the Germans and helping the Germans attack US forces. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2126 "2024-10-26T01:41:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well over a hundred journalist have been killed in Gaza since the start of the war. That’s more journalists than America lost in World War 2. More than Vietnam. Why do you think that America may not have lost very many journalists when it fought wars on distant continents? 🤨 > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m happy to go toe-to-toe here with you on the facts. But the reality is that you’ve got no facts. So cheap pot-shots is all you’ve got. 🤣 OK, buddy ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2127 "2024-10-26T01:45:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t believe there were many American journalists working behind German lines …journalists in Gaza aren’t “working behind enemy lines” in the way that you describe. They literally _live_ there. It’s a death toll that far exceeds any other recent conflict by a significant margin. It’s not the first time that journalists have lived in a place that was invaded. > [@Smapti](#): > > and taking instructions from the Germans and helping the Germans attack US forces. The journalists in Gaza aren’t doing this either. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2128 "2024-10-26T01:50:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > well over a hundred journalist have been killed in Gaza since the start of the war. That’s more journalists than America lost in World War 2. More than Vietnam. Yeah. The big picture says that Israel is targeting journalists. The evidence that any one of them is a terrorist is thin. I didn’t know why Israel is murdering journalists. I’m guessing it’s strategic, they don’t want anyone reporting on what they are doing in Gaza. But it seems really clear that Israel is murdering journalists. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2129 "2024-10-26T01:52:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Why do you think that America may not have lost very many journalists when it fought wars on distant continents? 🤨 …I’m sorry, that wasn’t American journalists. From 2006: > [@](#): > > [According to](http://www.cpj.org/news/2006/mideast/iraq29may06na.html) Ann Cooper of the Committee To Protect Journalists, 71 journalists and 26 support staffers have been killed in the Iraq war. “That number [71] is more than the 63 killed in Vietnam, the 17 killed in Korea, **and even the 69 killed in World War II** , according to Freedom Forum, a nonpartisan free speech advocacy group,” [notes](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) the New York Times. The Times thus determines that, at least by some estimates, “the death of two journalists working for CBS News on Monday firmly secured the Iraq war as the deadliest conflict for reporters in modern times.” > **[The Numbers And What's Behind Them](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-numbers-and-whats-behind-them/)** > > The Numbers And What's Behind Them > [@Babale](#): > > 🤣 OK, buddy I’m not your buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2130 "2024-10-26T01:54:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They literally _live_ there. In that case, they’ve ignored several evacuation warnings at this point, so what happens to them is their own responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2131 "2024-10-26T01:56:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In that case, they’ve ignored several evacuation warnings at this point …in NONE of the cases we’ve been talking about today did any of the journalist ignore “evacuation” warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2132 "2024-10-26T01:57:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …journalists in Gaza aren’t “working behind enemy lines” in the way that you describe. Many of them absolutely are. I don’t know what to tell you. If you willfully ignore all the evidence that Hamas does indeed do fucked up shit that leads to higher civilian casualties, including the misuse of press privileges to attack Israel, which leads to the deaths of both Hamas terrorists dressed as press as well as journalists who aren’t Hamas but whose PRESS vests don’t protect nearly as well when PRESS clad terrorists are out there too - then I guess you have no choice but to conclude that Israel is bloodthirsty murdering journalists left and right. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m guessing it’s strategic, they don’t want anyone reporting on what they are doing in Gaza. With all due respect, do you not see how fucking stupid that idea is? There’s tons and tons of reporting coming out of Gaza. Every idiot with a smartphone can be a reporter. Do you _really_ think that a bunch of adults sat around a room and seriously concluded that they can shush atrocities by murdering journalists? Again, with all do respect, do you _seriously_ believe that? Isn’t it far _more_ believable that the IDF is not, in fact, fully staffed with people psychopathic enough to come up with this plan but mentally deficient enough not to understand why it would never work - but instead, that, first, there really ARE terrorists pretending to be press, and that leads to some of the deaths; and, second, innocent journalists get killed because Israeli tank operators _don’t_ think it’s far fetched that a group of PRESS clad people aiming a tube at the tank are terrorists in disguise, since that’s a thing that happens on a fairly regular basis? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2133 "2024-10-26T02:04:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > in NONE of the cases we’ve been talking about today did any of the journalist ignore “evacuation” warnings. So you’re now claiming that at no point in the last year have Gazans been warned to evacuate. Weird claim to make, but coming from the poster who gave us such hits as “there are no tunnels” and “Hamas doesn’t use human shields”, it’s not unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2134 "2024-10-26T02:17:44Z")
…from the latest Flash update: due to the deteriorating situation on the ground the Flash updates have been reduced to only one per week. > [@](#): > > - Israeli strikes have reportedly impacted all three partially functional hospitals in the North Gaza governorate, with injured patients dying at Kamal Adwan Hospital amidst a lack of life-saving medical supplies, fuel and food, while communication challenges hamper efforts to ascertain the situation at the Indonesian and Al-Awda hospitals. > … > - Between 1 and 21 October, only six per cent (four out of 70) of coordinated aid movements that aimed to provide humanitarian assistance in North Gaza and Gaza governorates via Al Rashid checkpoint were facilitated by Israeli authorities. > [@](#): > > Between the afternoons of 15 and 22 October, according to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza, 374 Palestinians were killed and 1,269 were injured. > … > Moreover, on 20 October, the Palestinian Civil Defence (PCD) reported that tens of homes have been hit in Jabalya, Beit Lahya and Beit Hanoun, but coordination requests to reach injured and trapped people in inaccessible areas have been unsuccessful. Tens of bodies reportedly remain under the rubble and dozens of bodies remain scattered in the streets of Jabalya, PCD added. > … > > - On 20 October, the MoH published the breakdown of 40,717 out of 42,010 fatalities as of 7 October 2024 for whom full details have been documented by MoH (also available on the Health Cluster’s Unified Dashboard [here](https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiODAxNTYzMDYtMjQ3YS00OTMzLTkxMWQtOTU1NWEwMzE5NTMwIiwidCI6ImY2MTBjMGI3LWJkMjQtNGIzOS04MTBiLTNkYzI4MGFmYjU5MCIsImMiOjh9)); according to MoH, these include 13,319 children, 7,216 women, 3,447 elderly, and 16,735 men. Among the child fatalities, 786 children are under one year of age, representing about six per cent of killed children whose full identification details have been documented, MoH further reported. Additionally, as of 7 October 2024, MoH noted that 35,055 children had lost one or both parents over the past year. > … > On 18 and 19 October, Israeli strikes reportedly impacted all three remaining hospitals in the North Gaza governorate – Kamal Adwan, Indonesian and Al-Awda. According to MoH, the top floors and front yard of the Indonesian Hospital, which hosted more than 40 trauma and chronic patients as well as medical staff, were hit and had a total power outage. Two critical patients subsequently died amid lack of electricity and supplies, MoH added. Al-Awda Hospital and the entrance to the laboratory of Kamal Adwan were also hit, resulting in casualties, Al-Awda Health and Community [Association](https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=522560030410048&id=100079681656155&mibextid=WC7FNe&rdid=x8qsXc7NB0mlnR19) and MoH reported. > … > On 21 October, the Director of Kamal Adwan reported that blood units had been exhausted, medical crews have been working restlessly without food, a number of patients had succumbed to their wounds amid capacity constraints, and other wounded persons were lying in the streets with no possibility to rescue them. > … > The analysis explains that, while a temporary surge in humanitarian assistance and commercial supply between May and August 2024 partly alleviated acute food insecurity, the sharp decline in both commercial and humanitarian goods entering Gaza in September - the lowest volume recorded since March – combined with deterioration in humanitarian access to the north of Gaza since then - is expected to have dramatic consequences in the upcoming winter months. For the period between November 2024 and April 2025, the analysis projects that nearly two million people, or 91 per cent of the population, will be in crisis or worse levels of food insecurity and that there will be a three-fold increase in the number of people facing catastrophic levels of food insecurity (345,000 vs. 133,000), particularly affecting Rafah and the northern governorates. Much more available at the link. > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #231 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-231-gaza-strip)** > > Israeli strikes have reportedly impacted all three partially functional hospitals in the North Gaza governorate, with injured patients dying at Kamal Adwan Hospital amidst a lack of life-saving medical supplies, fuel and food, while communication... From the UN Human Rights Office: > [@](#): > > The UN Human Rights Office is increasingly concerned that the manner in which the Israeli military is conducting hostilities in north Gaza, along with unlawful interference with humanitarian assistance and orders that are leading to forced displacement, may be causing the destruction of the Palestinian population in Gaza’s northernmost governate through death and displacement. This is particularly the case around Jabalya, Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanoun. > > … > > Israeli authorities prevented the entry of all essential supplies to north Gaza between 1 and 14 October, exacerbating the already dire situation under which food and fuel supplies to the north were dwindling, and many were facing starvation. After 15 October, a token amount of aid seems to have entered the north, but this does not commensurate with the needs of the population. > > … > > These attacks have made it extremely dangerous for civilians to flee, and the UN Human Rights Office has received reports over the last weeks of Palestinians targeted while fleeing. > > … > > One strike on a residential block in Beit Lahiya on 19 October killed at least 87 Palestinians according to the Gaza Ministry of Health. Keeping with the trend in this escalation, many of the casualties appear to be children and women. > [@](#): > > The Israeli military’s resumed attacks on two of the three main hospitals in north Gaza put even more pressure on the civilian population. All three hospitals, already damaged in previous IDF attacks, are also struggling with shortages of supplies and fuel. Rescue teams and medics continue to report restrictions and direct and indirect attacks by the Israeli military, hindering lifesaving operations, including the recovery of Palestinians trapped under rubble. > **[UN Human Rights Office - OPT: UN Human Rights Office is concerned over the...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-un-human-rights-office-concerned-over-potential-destruction-palestinian-population-north-gaza)** > > News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 20 Oct 2024 by OHCHR The state of emergency services in Northern Gaza: > [@](#): > > Gaza’s Civil Defense announced Wednesday that it has halted its operations in northern Gaza following the arrest of five personnel and the targeting of three others by Israeli forces. > > It also said that its only fire engine in the region was destroyed, describing the situation as “catastrophic.” > > “Our operations have completely ceased in North Gaza province, and the situation has become catastrophic. Residents in the area are now without essential humanitarian services,” the agency said in a statement. [https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/gaza-civil-defense-ceases-operations-in-northern-part-of-enclave/3372416](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/gaza-civil-defense-ceases-operations-in-northern-part-of-enclave/3372416) While there are posters in this thread who appear to be positively gleeful that Israel are targeting and killing journalists, a reminder that the IDF are waging a systematic campaign of destruction, driving people out of and then burning their homes down, separating men and some boys from the women and sending them on forced marches to goodness knows where. That these aren’t “evacuations.” They are destroying these homes. There isn’t anywhere for them to return to. Its ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2135 "2024-10-26T02:19:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Many of them absolutely are. …which ones? > [@Smapti](#): > > So you’re now claiming that at no point in the last year have Gazans been warned to evacuate. Nope. But that wasn’t what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2136 "2024-10-26T02:21:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m sorry, that wasn’t American journalists. From 2006: Ah, I see, you’re mixing methodologies. In the Gaza war, you’re counting any journalist who is killed, whether they were shot while accompanying a military unit or killed in a bombing that hits their house. The WW2 number is cherry picked to include only journalists who were killed while actively reporting on the war. (Or more charitably, they simply didn’t bother to do the admittedly gruelling work of going through endless records to determine how many journalists were killed in contexts other than on the front line). Your number is not counting journalists killed in their beds during the Battle of London or the Bombing of Dresden, or during the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It doesn’t count Chinese journalists killed by the Japanese during the Rape of Nanking or other massacres, or Jewish journalists killed by the Nazis. Combine that with the fact that we have many more press agencies than we did in WW2, and that many of them employ far more people, and it’s not surprising at all that the numbers are in entirely different orders of magnitude. If you want an apples to apples comparison, rather than using a war from nearly a century ago, you could look at Syria, where 750 journalists have been killed in the ongoing war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2137 "2024-10-26T02:23:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …which ones? Your buddy Al Ghoul, for one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2138 "2024-10-26T02:26:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But that wasn’t what you said. So according to Banquet\_Bear, the following things are true; 1. There are journalists who are civilians living in Gaza 2. Civilians living in Gaza have been warned to evacuate 3. Journalists who are civilians living in Gaza have not been warned to evacuate Clear as mud. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2139 "2024-10-26T02:29:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Your buddy Al Ghoul, for one. …no he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2140 "2024-10-26T02:29:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Isn’t it far _more_ believable that the IDF is not, in fact, fully staffed with people psychopathic enough to come up with this plan but mentally deficient enough not to understand why it would never work - but instead, that, first, there really ARE terrorists pretending to be press, and that leads to some of the deaths; and, second, innocent journalists get killed because Israeli tank operators _don’t_ think it’s far fetched that a group of PRESS clad people aiming a tube at the tank are terrorists in disguise, since that’s a thing that happens on a fairly regular basis? With all due respect, unless you define anyone who writes propaganda for the enemy as a terrorist, i think that’s pretty unlikely that all those journalists were also terrorists. So i don’t know why they appear to have been targeted. But you haven’t given me any plausible reason, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=106) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=108)