# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 109
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2161 "2024-10-26T03:38:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Get off your high horse and shove it up your ass, tankie. …nah, I’m good thanks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2162 "2024-10-26T09:39:39Z")
Vox revisits whether the war in Gaza meets the definition of genocide: > **[Is Israel committing genocide? Reexamining the question, a year later.](https://www.vox.com/politics/378913/israel-gaza-genocide-icj)** > > We spoke to a number of experts a year ago. Several have changed their minds. What stood out to me is Netanyahu’s plans to depopulate northern Gaza and ensure no aid gets in (supposedly to somehow get the hostages back, but that seems pretty nonsensical to me): > **[Netanyahu considering plan to force all Palestinian civilians out of northern...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/22/middleeast/netanyahu-gaza-hamas-expulsions-plan-intl/index.html)** > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is considering a plan to force all Palestinian civilians out of northern Gaza, including Gaza City, in order to lay siege to Hamas and force the release of hostages. I don’t know if it’s genocide but it’s incredibly bloody and brutal and doesn’t seem to be accomplishing anything at all, except keeping Netanyahu in power and (possibly) impacting the US election per Netanyahu’s preference. Smapti and Babale’s knee jerk defenses of every single shred of criticism against the IDF and Israel’s overall strategy are so gleeful and information free that they might as well be coming from Yair Netanyahu. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2163 "2024-10-26T10:24:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You literally brushed past three reports from three different agencies that outlined the circumstances around the attack that killed Issam Abdallah and yet you repeated the nonsense about how the IDF “mistook their camera for an RPG launcher.” What did I “brush past”, you whiny little Hezbollass licker? I didn’t “brush past” your terrorist loving NGO’s reports. All they said was that the PRESS markings were clearly visible, and I explained why, given Hamas’ regular misuse of PRESS markings, someone might still mistake a tube being pointed at his tank by someone in a PRESS vest for a weapon. Because Hamas regularly uses PRESS clad militants. Now, if you want to get back to your wild apples to oranges comparison with WW2 journalist deaths (but only some of them)… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You guys are so tangled up in your propagandist talking points, you can’t help but drop them randomly into the conversation Peak irony coming from _you_ of all people. I have no idea what you’re talking about, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2164 "2024-10-26T10:26:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Smapti and Babale’s knee jerk defenses of every single shred of criticism against the IDF and Israel’s overall strategy are so gleeful and information free that they might as well be coming from Yair Netanyahu. Cute. You’ll note I didn’t defend against “any single shred of criticism”, but against the blood libelous narrative presented by Banquet Buddy and others claiming that Israel is willfully killing journalists left and right. Your criticisms of my comments are so gleeful and information free that they could have been written by Banquet Buddy or his Iranian handlers themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2165 "2024-10-26T10:35:30Z")
@iiandyiiii, do you disagree with any of the points I made about why Banquet Buddy’s comparison to WW2 is ridiculous? > [@Babale](#): > > Ah, I see, you’re mixing methodologies. > > In the Gaza war, you’re counting any journalist who is killed, whether they were shot while accompanying a military unit or killed in a bombing that hits their house. > > The WW2 number is cherry picked to include only journalists who were killed while actively reporting on the war. (Or more charitably, they simply didn’t bother to do the admittedly gruelling work of going through endless records to determine how many journalists were killed in contexts other than on the front line). > > Your number is not counting journalists killed in their beds during the Battle of London or the Bombing of Dresden, or during the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It doesn’t count Chinese journalists killed by the Japanese during the Rape of Nanking or other massacres, or Jewish journalists killed by the Nazis. > > Combine that with the fact that we have many more press agencies than we did in WW2, and that many of them employ far more people, and it’s not surprising at all that the numbers are in entirely different orders of magnitude. > > If you want an apples to apples comparison, rather than using a war from nearly a century ago, you could look at Syria, where 750 journalists have been killed in the ongoing war. You think that comparison in methodologies is “information free”? What part of my analysis of why Hamas’ misuse of press markers might lead to tragic incidents like the one where reporters were shot at by a tank do you consider “Yair Netanyahuesque”, exactly? > [@Babale](#): > > There’s tons and tons of reporting coming out of Gaza. Every idiot with a smartphone can be a reporter. Do you _really_ think that a bunch of adults sat around a room and seriously concluded that they can shush atrocities by murdering journalists? Again, with all do respect, do you _seriously_ believe that? > > Isn’t it far _more_ believable that the IDF is not, in fact, fully staffed with people psychopathic enough to come up with this plan but mentally deficient enough not to understand why it would never work - but instead, that, first, there really ARE terrorists pretending to be press, and that leads to some of the deaths; and, second, innocent journalists get killed because Israeli tank operators _don’t_ think it’s far fetched that a group of PRESS clad people aiming a tube at the tank are terrorists in disguise, since that’s a thing that happens on a fairly regular basis? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2166 "2024-10-26T10:38:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > except keeping Netanyahu in power Oh please, Bibi’s gonna be out of office any day now. Gantz was taking over months ago. What’s that, Bibi is, AGAIN, more popular than any time after the October 7th attack? Unpossible! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2167 "2024-10-26T11:07:31Z")
Because you’re putting the best spin possible on everything. Doesn’t matter what right wing Israeli leadership actually in power says - the IDF must necessarily be as good as it gets, with only very occasional and regrettable mistakes at worst. It’s just not believable. No, the IDF isn’t an army of monsters, but there are many right wing Israelis who are members. Many who are officers. Many who agree with Smotrich and worse. And some of them want to do terrible things, and a system led mostly by extremists should not be trusted to protect Gazan civilians (including journalists) from soldiers who wish them ill because they are Gazans. Some of the deaths are surely mistakes as you describe. But it’s just not credible that they all necessarily are, or that all or nearly all Gazan civilians killed are necessarily killed due to entirely legitimate military operations. The scrutiny is deserved and warranted and the skepticism of IDF reports defending their own is similarly deserved and warranted. Governments and militaries killing thousands upon thousands of civilians should be subject to this kind of scrutiny and skepticism. Especially when led by the kind of extremists in charge of Israel’s government. It’s just not necessary. Israel is killing thousands and accomplishing nothing for peace and security. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2168 "2024-10-26T11:33:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some of the deaths are surely mistakes as you describe. But it’s just not credible that they all necessarily are, or that all or nearly all Gazan civilians killed are necessarily killed due to entirely legitimate military operations. The scrutiny is deserved and warranted and the skepticism of IDF reports defending their own is similarly deserved and warranted. I didn’t say any of the things you’re arguing against here. Obviously when we are in a thread with people who deny Israel’s right to exist and insist that every dead civilian is evidence of Israel’s genocidal intent, I’m going to take a pretty hardline stance. When the Hamas apologia stops, or in other venues where it isn’t so dominant in the conversation, I’m happy to have discussions with you about accountability. They do happen in those other venues, including in Israel where such discussion actually has an impact on anything, and they can get quite heated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2169 "2024-10-26T11:34:50Z")
By every measure I can find, the combatant-to-civilian death ratio in Gaza is far worse than 3 to 1 (which, IIRC, Babale indicated was the appropriate threshold at which to be concerned). Hamas is very wrong to situate themselves among civilians, but that doesn’t mean it’s totally fine for the IDF to engage in actions that kill so many civilians and have effectively destroyed Gaza. Their defenders in this thread act as if Israel had no choice but to do exactly what they’ve done. That’s ludicrous. Many of Israel’s critics will attack Israel no matter what they do. But many would not. Israel could have and should have done things differently after Oct 7th. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2170 "2024-10-26T11:38:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By every measure I can find, the combatant-to-civilian death ratio in Gaza is far worse than 3 to 1 (which, IIRC, Babale indicated was the appropriate threshold at which to be concerned). Say what? The numbers I’ve seen are around 17,000 militants to 44,000 total. That’s slightly better than 3 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2171 "2024-10-26T11:40:07Z")
Nm () ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2172 "2024-10-26T11:44:05Z")
What what? > [@](#): > > Oct 1 (Reuters) - Palestinian health authorities say Israel’s ground and air campaign in Gaza has killed more than 41,500 people, with the majority of identified victims being women and children. > [@](#): > > Israel periodically gives estimates of how many Hamas fighters it believes have been killed. The most recent is 17,000-18,000, about half the Hamas force estimated before the war. Eta: ah, you edited your post. Initially you seemed quite shocked at the numbers I gave - were you under the impression that they were significantly different than that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2173 "2024-10-26T11:48:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Initially you seemed quite shocked at the numbers I gave - were you under the impression that they were significantly different than that? The reason I ask, @iiandyiiii, is that if you DID think the numbers were significantly worse, that would go a long way toward explaining your view of the conflict, or your reactions to my statements… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2174 "2024-10-26T11:51:45Z")
Yes, I did think they were significantly worse. I’m going to look into it some more. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2175 "2024-10-26T11:56:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, I did think they were significantly worse. I’m going to look into it some more If nothing else, I appreciate the good faith with which you approach this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2176 "2024-10-26T11:58:30Z")
And by the way, I don’t blame you - the way the narrative is often presented, I’d expect SIGNIFICANTLY worse casualty levels. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2177 "2024-10-26T12:00:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, I did think they were significantly worse. I’m going to look into it some more. …just bear in mind that statistic from Israel is literally made up. It isn’t based on a real world assessment of people they’ve killed. It’s based on an estimate based on wars in the past. Almost every humanitarian agency on the ground accepts the 42,000 figure is a significant undercount. The health system is in tatters and the system to record deaths can no longer keep up. There are an estimated 10,000 [people](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149256) (in May) buried under the rubble. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2178 "2024-10-26T12:04:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …just bear in mind that statistic from Israel is literally made up. It isn’t based on a real world assessment of people they’ve killed. It’s based on an estimate based on wars in the past. Yes, it is true - if you approach this from the standpoint that every claim made by Israel can automatically be assumed to be a “Zionist” lie, you might come to different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2179 "2024-10-26T12:13:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yes, it is true - if you approach this from the standpoint that every claim made by Israel can automatically be assumed to be a “Zionist” lie, you might come to different conclusions. …you know I’m right. We’ve had this discussion before. That figure isn’t based on a real world assessment of the numbers. Its a guess. And it doesn’t take into account the fact that the 42,000 is a significant undercount. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2024, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2180 "2024-10-26T12:20:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you know I’m right I know you like to smugly declare yourself right, yes. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That figure isn’t based on a real world assessment of the numbers Of course it is. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its a guess It is an estimate based on all the information that the Israeli army synthesizes, including combat reports and footage, analysis of video from drones and recon, and when possible actual examination of the battlefield. Which is precisely what any other army bases its figures on. It is not a “guess”. If you want to disregard that entire branch of military science because all army analysts are part of an organization that’s inherently ideologically colonialist and violent or whatever, you can do you, but the rest of us are here in reality. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And it doesn’t take into account the fact that the 42,000 is a significant undercount. 17,000/52,000 is 32.6% or just a hair below 1 in 3. But that also uses the highest estimate of casualties and the lowest estimate of combatants… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=108) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=110)