# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/201 "2023-11-15T13:34:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. If Hamas is truly using Shifa or the space under it as HQ, the next 24 hours will bring huge amounts of evidence: videos of weapon stockpiles, arrested/killed Hamas leaders, videos of command centers, seized hard drives, and the like. > 2. If Hamas is only using Shifa a little bit, we’ll see small evidence made big: small piles of weapons, a narrow tunnel, killed/arrested Hamas footsoldiers. > 3. If Hamas isn’t using Shifa at all, there’ll be very little coming out of IDF about the issue. > > It’s possible that something else will happen, but this is what I’m expecting. That is my expectation, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/202 "2023-11-15T14:17:56Z")
NBC just reported that the water pumps and sewage treatment facility in Rafa are now shut down. I’m no authority but I’ve seen the results of no available restroom facilities. Outdoor defecation and no hand washing is a recipe for typhoid. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/203 "2023-11-15T15:24:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unless you believe in ghosts and astrology, that’s not how percentages work. Didn’t meant to imply that we should add these percentages up. Like you, I believe in math. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/204 "2023-11-16T01:27:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. If Hamas is truly using Shifa or the space under it as HQ, the next 24 hours will bring huge amounts of evidence: videos of weapon stockpiles, arrested/killed Hamas leaders, videos of command centers, seized hard drives, and the like. > 2. If Hamas is only using Shifa a little bit, we’ll see small evidence made big: small piles of weapons, a narrow tunnel, killed/arrested Hamas footsoldiers. > 3. If Hamas isn’t using Shifa at all, there’ll be very little coming out of IDF about the issue. > > It’s possible that something else will happen, but this is what I’m expecting. It doesn’t matter what Israel does or does not find, or does or does not show the world; few minds, if any, will be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/205 "2023-11-16T01:34:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It doesn’t matter what Israel does or does not find, or does or does not show the world; few minds, if any, will be changed. The world is changed a few minds at a time. The truth always matters. Two days ago I was arguing that surely the IDF must have strong evidence that there was a Hamas HQ down there. Today I am much less sure. I can be persuaded, but it’ll take evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/206 "2023-11-16T23:56:00Z")
…in Northern Gaza, the Indonesian Hospital is now “out of service.” I’ve included a link to the Al Jazeera report. (Link spoiled because it contains images of wounded Palestinians being treated) Actual video from the hospital, that I won’t link to here, is even more disturbing. A care-worker using a manual ventilator on a child, the only thing keeping them alive. Blood soaked gauze all over the floor, next to patients who take up almost the entire floorspace because there is nowhere else to put them. [Israel-Gaza: Indonesian Hospital ‘out of service’, inundated with wounded | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/16/gazas-indonesian-hospital-out-of-service-overwhelmed-with-wounded) So whats next for the Indonesian Hospital? > [@aljazeera](#): > > Israel’s military has alleged the Indonesian Hospital is used “to hide an underground command and control centre” for Hamas. Palestinian officials and the Indonesian group that funds the hospital have rejected the claims. At Al-Shifa The IDF have been in control of the hospital for a couple of days now. > [@BBC](#): > > **The director of the Gaza Strip’s main hospital raided by Israeli soldiers says the facility has now run out of oxygen and water, and patients “are screaming from thirst”.** > > Muhammad Abu Salmiya said “the conditions are tragic” in Al-Shifa, where there were currently more than 650 patients, 500 medical staff and over 5,000 displaced people. > > … > > In a statement on Thursday, Mr Abu Salmiya said Israeli troops had blown up Al-Shifa’s main water line. > > “Sniping operations continue, no-one can move from one building to another, and we have lost communication with our colleagues,” he said. > > Earlier on Thursday, Khader told the BBC that Israeli troops had “stormed all departments”, destroying the southern part of the building’s wall and dozens of cars. > > Before Khader’s phone line cut off, he also said that armoured bulldozers had been brought in. > **[Al-Shifa Hospital director in Gaza says no water or oxygen left](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67442045)** > > The Al-Shifa director says people are "screaming from thirst", as Israel says its "discreet" search continues. And heres the absolutely worse thing. It didn’t have to happen this way. It the intelligence was good enough to show that there were “command and control” bunkers at the hospital, then the intelligence should have been good enough to tell them of the massive need for humanitarian aid at the hospital. They didn’t need to lay siege to the hospital for six days. They could have just gone in, as they ended up doing anyway. And after the hospital had been secured they could have rolled in trucks of food, water, fuel and medical supplies. And they could have bought in doctors and nurses to give relief to the medical workers who have risked their lives to keep people alive. Instead: we have _this_. Whatever the fuck this is. Where a handful of weapons and a laptop are lauded as all the proof they needed. The siege of Al-Shifa was a war crime. The attack on Al-Shifa was a war crime. What they are doing while they are searching for “bunkers” at Al-Shifa is a war crime. Even if we accept that prior to the siege that the hospital may have “lost its protection”, now that it is fully under the IDF control, those _protections return_. There are no excuses for what is happening at the hospital _right now_. The latest Flash Update from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs says: > [@UNOCHA](#): > > Only one of the hospitals in Gaza city and northern Gaza (hereafter: the north) is reportedly still operational at a minimum level for those inside the hospital > > … > > Al Ahli Hospital, in Gaza city, currently accommodates over 500 patients and is reportedly the sole medical facility able to admit patients in the north. However, it too faces increasing shortages and challenges. > > … > > - According to the World Health Organization (WHO), as of 14 November, more than half of the hospitals in Gaza (22 out of 36) were non-functional due to lack of fuel, damage, attacks and insecurity. > > … > > - Although 91 trucks carrying humanitarian aid entered from Egypt on 14 November, the distribution of supplies to shelters, clinics and other beneficiaries has largely come to a halt due to lack of fuel. The Israeli authorities have indicated that, on 15 November, they would allow the entry of a limited amount of fuel into Gaza, to be used exclusively to run trucks for the distribution of incoming humanitarian aid. This represents a fraction of the fuel needs for humanitarian operations. **Meanwhile, the entry of fuel for any other use, including the operation of generators at hospitals, and at water and sanitation facilities, remains banned. This will be the first time since 7 October that fuel is allowed into Gaza.** > > … > > - Hundreds of thousands of people who are unwilling or unable to move to the south remain in the north amid intense hostilities. They are struggling to secure the minimum amount of water and food for survival. The consumption of water from unsafe sources raises serious concerns about dehydration and waterborne diseases. The World Food Programme (WFP) has expressed concern about malnutrition and starvation. Much more at the link. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #39 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-39-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Education, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 14 Nov 2023 by OCHA The situation in the North is _dire_. Only one barely functional hospital. Malnutrition and starvation. People dying in the streets, in their homes, not only from the deadly consequences of the war, but the mundane things that kill people when they can’t get hospital care. In the south, the place that the Palestinians have been told to flee to so they could be safe: > [@The Guardian](#): > > Israel has dropped leaflets into southern Gaza telling Palestinian civilians to leave four towns on the eastern edge of Khan Younis, raising fears that its war against Hamas could spread to areas it previously said were safe. > > The flyers told civilians in Bani Shuhaila, Khuza’a, Abassan and al-Qarara that anyone in the vicinity of militants or their positions was “putting his life in danger”, local people told Reuters. > **[Israel drops leaflets warning people to flee southern Gaza towns](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/israel-drops-leaflets-warning-people-to-flee-southern-gaza-towns)** > > Flyer campaign raises fears war could spread to areas IDF previously said were safe One-third of those killed so far have been in the South. Nowhere in Gaza is safe. It’s been a week since we stopped getting regular casualty numbers from the Palestinian Ministry of Health. And with the IDF showing no interest in keeping track of those numbers, we have no idea how bad things really are now. No sign of a let-up of the siege. No fuel going to the hospitals. Most of the hospitals shut down. The bombing continues. No strategy. No end in sight. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/207 "2023-11-17T02:13:23Z")
> [@Mehdi Hasan](#): > > Me: “You accept that you [Israel] have killed children [in Gaza]? Or do you deny that?” > > Netanyahu adviser Mark Regev: “No, I do not. First of all, you don’t know how those people died, those children.” > > Me: “Oh wow.” > …full video here: > **[‘That was a mistake’: Mehdi challenges Israeli adviser Mark Regev on false...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU%2F)** > > Watch-Mehdi’s wide ranging interview with Mark Regev, Senior Adviser to Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu, on the status of a possible hostage deal, accusations ... ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/208 "2023-11-17T15:52:01Z")
Considering what the IDF has shown so far, it seems more like the Bush administration hyping up 25 year old chemical warheads from the Iran-Iraq War as the proof of the claimed weapons of mass destruction Iraq supposedly had tons of and were actively making more. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/209 "2023-11-17T16:04:24Z")
Well, 15 year old weapons. Math is hard. Still, it’s been very weak tea so far. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/210 "2023-11-17T22:57:56Z")
I suppose I’m over thinking this/just notice the wrong thing, but why would you hide weapons (metal weapons) next to an mri machine? I know terrorists blah blah, but that just seems stupid. Aren’t there other less dicey places to leave your guns? And they didn’t look “hidden.” I admit I only saw a quick TV shot. The whole thing made me go Hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/211 "2023-11-17T23:08:44Z")
I posted in the other thread, there is doubt about that report, and there is evidence the IDF is not being 100% honest. > Even the videos produced so far have raised questions under scrutiny. A BBC analysis found the footage of an IDF spokesperson showing the apparent discovery of a bag containing a gun behind an MRI scanning machine, had been taped hours before the arrival of the journalists to whom he was supposedly showing it. > > In a video shown later, the number of guns in the bag had doubled. The IDF claimed its video of what it found at the hospital was unedited, filmed in a single take, but the BBC analysis found it had been edited. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/212 "2023-11-17T23:17:18Z")
…so far 24 patients have died at Al-Shifa as equipment has stopped working due to power outages since the IDF took over. Reports that some food and water has been supplied, but not nearly enough to feed the nearly 2-3000 people that are trapped at the hospital. The IDF provided 5 incubators for babies. But the hospital already has 50 incubators: what they don’t have is _power_. As the IDF prepare to do the same thing to other hospitals in the region, and as they prepare a new offensive down south where they are _claiming_ that Hamas leadership have moved to, one would hope that this would be an object lesson in following the evidence. There was _never_ any evidence that there was an underground command and control bunker below Al-Shifa Hospital. Thousands of people have worked there. We’ve had decades to investigate the claims. Instead everyone just believed the claims to be true. "Insurgency 101, as someone said to me in the other thread. And if the command and control bunker claims were untrue, I would hope everyone would take the time to reflect on statements like “hiding behind human shields” and consider how true those statements are as well. Because Israel is not tracking the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. They literally have no way of knowing if they are hitting Hamas targets or not. Gaza is cut off from food, water, fuel. They are taking out the hospitals, one, by one, and not replacing them with anything. These are _crimes against humanity_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/213 "2023-11-18T10:34:53Z")
…absolutely shocking news just went down at Al-Shifa. This is breaking, normal disclaimers apply. > [@Guardian](#): > > Israeli troops order evacuation of hospital ‘in the next hour’ over loudspeakers - AFP > > Israeli troops ordered the evacuation of al-Shifa hospital “in the next hour” over loudspeakers on Saturday, an AFP journalist at the scene reported, as troops combed the facility for Hamas hideouts. > **[Joe Biden says Gaza and West Bank should be ‘reunited’ under Palestinian...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/18/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-issues-fresh-warning-to-leave-khan-younis-report-of-26-killed#top-of-blog)** > > In Washington Post on Saturday, Biden writes: ‘After this war is over, the voices of Palestinian people … must be at the center of post-crisis governance’ (Link is to live-feed page, it may refresh or have changed by the time you click it) Basically from all reports the hospital has been cleared out. Over a hundred patients and some medical staff remain, the rest are being forced to walk south. And now there are reports that the IDF _deny_ asking people to leave, and they don’t know why everyone just upped and left. “It wasn’t us!” they are claiming as the problem of how to house, feed, water, and give medical attention to thousands of people simply goes away. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/214 "2023-11-18T14:19:57Z")
…another fucking pointless massacre. The IDF bombed a UNRWA school. Link to Al-Jazeera report, contains disturbing images including multiple dead children, spoilered to fit the two-click rule. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb7s20xyHqo/](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb7s20xyHqo/) ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/215 "2023-11-28T23:04:15Z")
NBC News wrote an hour ago that a UN consortium reported approximately 60% of housing stock in Gaza overall is now inhabitable. It’s hard for me to picture that amount of rubble. Maybe it’s like WWII when Britain and Germany bombed it each other to bits. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/216 "2023-11-29T00:56:48Z")
I assume you mean “uniinhabitable.” Of course, when you think about it, however you flip the numbers, a staggering number of people have lost their homes. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/217 "2023-11-29T01:02:52Z")
In Gaza. Not so much in Israel, right? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/218 "2023-12-24T00:27:53Z")
No, why? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/219 "2023-12-24T00:37:01Z")
If addressed to me, I don’t understand your question. If you looked at Gaza and Israel, you’d see that one of them has been destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/220 "2024-01-10T04:51:35Z")
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-s-far-right-calls-for-palestinians-to-resettle-outside-gaza/ar-AA1mJfCZ?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0d7d77bace9f4c60a42f57e1f67314ee&ei=29](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-s-far-right-calls-for-palestinians-to-resettle-outside-gaza/ar-AA1mJfCZ?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0d7d77bace9f4c60a42f57e1f67314ee&ei=29) I can’t say I didn’t see this coming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=12)