# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 112
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2221 "2024-12-28T22:57:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sounds like an acknowledgement that the hospital was harboring combatants to me. I was gonna say not even you could be this stupid, but you’ve provided plenty of evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2222 "2024-12-28T23:05:55Z")
And it sounds as if you are completely full of bullshit to _me_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2223 "2024-12-28T23:38:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > hospitals are allowed to _treat_ combatants. So we agree Hamas had a presence at the hospital, and we agree they were armed. The “director” of the hospital was a brigadier general in Hamas, there were tunnels underneath it, and this isn’t even the first time Hamas has been caught running military operations out of this hospital which is located in an evacuated zone where no non-combatants are supposed to be. I’m not convinced that this facility had any legitimate reason to call itself a hospital. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Where exactly do you think IDF soldiers go when they get injured? Not to a staging area for rocket attacks on civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2224 "2024-12-29T00:13:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So we agree Hamas had a presence at the hospital …and under the Geneva conventions and International Humanitarian Law, they are allowed a presence and are allowed to be treated. > [@Smapti](#): > > and we agree they were armed. No we don’t. There were two handguns shown in the photo: which may have been in storage after being removed as per IHL, or they may have belonged to security guards. > [@Smapti](#): > > The “director” There is no need for quotes. He was the director of the hospital. He had already been detained and released. > [@Smapti](#): > > was a brigadier general in Hamas, Good god you are a fucking idiot. Ahmad Kahalot **IS NOT** Dr. Hussam Abu Safiya. They are fucking two very different people. Ahmad Kahalot was the director of the hospital last year and was detained in 2023. The only evidence that he was a “Brigadier General” was a televised confession, that most humanitarian agencies suspect was coerced. Stop pretending that two seconds on google makes you an expert on this. You are a fucking idiot who _doesn’t have a clue_. > [@Smapti](#): > > there were tunnels underneath it, Cite please. > [@Smapti](#): > > and this isn’t even the first time Hamas has been caught running military operations out of this hospital Cite please. > [@Smapti](#): > > which is located in an evacuated zone These aren’t “evacuation zones” under IHL. This is _ethnic cleansing_. > [@Smapti](#): > > where no non-combatants are supposed to be. Its a _hospital_. Non combatants are allowed to be in a hospital and Israel have no basis under IHL to either attack it or to “evacuate” it. > [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not convinced that this facility had any legitimate reason to call itself a hospital. That’s because you are a fucking idiot. > [@Smapti](#): > > Not to a staging area for rocket attacks on civilians. What even does this mean? They get taken to a hospital. Kamal Adwan was a hospital. It wasn’t a “staging area” for rocket attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2225 "2024-12-29T00:20:34Z")
> [@Smapti is Pitted](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1877): > > Does that also apply to people shouting “GENOCIDE!” on the basis of blatant propaganda engendered by Hamas and boosted by Russia, Iran, and their proxies? > > Because that’s what the “genocide” narrative has been all along - a Russian disinfo campaign intended to erode trust in western institutions and get Donald Trump elected. And they succeeded. …replying to this post in the other thread: No: the “genocide narrative” isn’t a “Russian disinfo campaign.” There is absolutely ZERO evidence of this. Not one iota. You won’t be able to produce a single thing. Because its a _lie_. The evidence, painstakingly recorded and reviewed by multiple legal entities, humanitarian agencies, genocide experts, and NGO’s, that I’ve (unlike you) have documented in this thread all lead to the same conclusion: that the actions Israel have taken contravene the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Its a genocide because all of the evidence points to this. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2226 "2024-12-29T00:36:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and under the Geneva conventions and International Humanitarian Law, they are allowed a presence and are allowed to be treated. Hamas is not eligible for the protection of the Geneva Convention and “international humanitarian law” went out the window when they decided to commit genocide against the Jews. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Ahmad Kahalot **IS NOT** Dr. Hussam Abu Safiya. They are fucking two very different people. “Sure, the LAST director of the hospital was a terrorist, but his replacement HAS to be on the up and up!” > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is _ethnic cleansing_. Then why are there still Palestinians there? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its a genocide because all of the evidence points to this. Your source for that evidence is Hamas, which is a proxy for Iran, which is a proxy for Russia. Wake the fuck up. Russia has been exploiting liberal guilt to delegitimize the west and paper over its own atrocities for over 60 years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2227 "2024-12-29T00:50:01Z")
Remember folks-It isn’t genocide unless they _all_ die. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2228 "2024-12-29T00:53:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas is not eligible for the protection of the Geneva Convention and “international humanitarian law” went out the window when they decided to commit genocide against the Jews. …you are literally just making stuff up as you go along. > [@Smapti](#): > > “Sure, the LAST director of the hospital was a terrorist, but his replacement HAS to be on the up and up!” The last director wasn’t a terrorist. The current director isn’t a terrorist. > [@Smapti](#): > > Then why are there still Palestinians there? Because ethnic cleansing is a _process_. There were hundreds of thousands of Gazan’s in the north in 2023. In November 2024, the estimates were there were about 65 thousand. Now? The estimates are about 10-15,000. Those 10-15,000 people still need healthcare. There are still civilians who are trapped. Who are too sick or injured or perhaps to stubbon to leave. They don’t suddenly become a target solely due to their geographic location. > [@Smapti](#): > > Your source for that evidence is Hamas My source are independent reports compiled by humanitarian agencies on the ground. You are free to review those reports yourself. The source for the evidence includes some that come from Hamas, but also come from NGO’s and independent doctors and medical staff and aid workers. > [@Smapti](#): > > Russia has been exploiting liberal guilt to delegitimize the west and paper over its own atrocities for over 60 years. As you will see: Smapti _has no evidence at all_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2229 "2024-12-29T01:12:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you are literally just making stuff up as you go along. > [@](#): > > The Geneva Conventions apply in wars between two or more opposing sovereign states.[4] They do not apply to civil wars between state forces, whether territorial or third state, and non-state armed groups. > **[Unlawful combatant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant)** > > An unlawful combatant, illegal combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a person who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war and therefore is claimed not to be protected by the Geneva Conventions. > The International Committee of the Red Cross points out that the terms "unlawful combatant", "illegal combatant" or "unprivileged combatant/belligerent" are not defined in any international agreements. While the concept of an unlawful combatant is includ The Geneva ... > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The last director wasn’t a terrorist. And yet he confessed. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The current director isn’t a terrorist. And yet he’s harboring Hamas in a facility in a mandatory evacuation zone. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Those 10-15,000 people still need healthcare. There are still civilians who are trapped. Who are too sick or injured or perhaps to stubbon to leave That’s not Israel’s problem. They were warned of the consequences of failing to evacuate. Whatever happens to them as a result is their own responsibility. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My source are independent reports compiled by humanitarian agencies on the ground. Agencies which are allied with Hamas, have been compromised by Hamas, or are actually comprised of Hamas to a significant degree, or who are relying on the Gazan MoH (I.e. Hamas) for data. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2230 "2024-12-29T02:00:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Geneva Conventions apply in wars …Hamas, the political entity, that are clearly and obviously not armed and _not combatants_, are allowed a presence at the hospital. And combatants (“illegal” (a term that your cite admits is not defined in international agreements) or otherwise) are allowed to be treated at the hospital. Whether _either_ were at Kamal Adwan in _any_ capacity is uncertain. > [@Smapti](#): > > And yet he confessed. Detainees held in Isreal are routinely subjected to humiliation, beatings and torture. [Cite](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro). [Televised](https://www.osce.org/odihr/488725) [confessions](https://iranhr.net/en/articles/6612/) [are](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde140252009eng.pdf) [often](https://ge.usembassy.gov/the-truth-behind-chinas-forced-confessions/) [coerced](https://www.voanews.com/a/east-asia-pacific_human-rights-activist-wants-chinese-tv-ban-forced-confessions/6204500.html). Palestinian prisoners are not being held in accordance with international law. There isn’t any reason why we should accept this confession. > [@Smapti](#): > > And yet he’s harboring Hamas in a facility in a mandatory evacuation zone. Liar. Its a hospital. And international humanitarian law requires the occupying power to not attack a hospital, even if it lies in an arbitrary so-called “evacuation zone”. > [@Smapti](#): > > That’s not Israel’s problem. As the occupying power, it _is_ Israel’s problem, actually. > [@Smapti](#): > > They were warned of the consequences of failing to evacuate. The rules of proportionality and the prohibition of targeting civilians don’t go out the window just because people “failed to evacuate.” > [@Smapti](#): > > Whatever happens to them as a result is their own responsibility. This isn’t how international law works. Because there are only very limited circumstances where civilians can be ordered to evacuate an area, and almost no international legal experts agree that evacuating the entirety of northern Gaza, with the understanding _that Palestinians will not be allowed to return_, then flattening all the houses and buildings in that area is _not in the very limited circumstances that evacuations are allowed_. Because these are not “evacuations.” Its _ethnic cleansing_. > [@Smapti](#): > > Agencies which are allied with Hamas, have been compromised by Hamas, or are actually comprised of Hamas to a significant degree, Liar. Note everyone again: Smapti isn’t providing any evidence. Because they don’t have any. > [@Smapti](#): > > or who are relying on the Gazan MoH (I.e. Hamas) for data. Israel relies on the Gazan MoH data. As do the United States of fucking America. And they rely on it because almost everyone (outside of conspiracy theorists like you) agree that the numbers are broadly accurate and, if anything, a massive undercount. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2231 "2024-12-29T02:09:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Note everyone again: Smapti isn’t providing any evidence. Because they don’t have any. The evidence has been laid out many times. You choose to ignore it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas, the political entity, that are clearly and obviously not armed and _not combatants_ LOL. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > everyone (outside of conspiracy theorists like you) agree that the numbers are broadly accurate and, if anything, a massive undercount. Hard to undercount when you’re describing 17-year-olds who were firing on Israeli soldiers as “murdered children”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > evacuating the entirety of northern Gaza, with the understanding _that Palestinians will not be allowed to return_, then flattening all the houses and buildings in that area is _not in the very limited circumstances that evacuations are allowed_. Good thing that isn’t happening, then. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because there are only very limited circumstances where civilians can be ordered to evacuate an area, Such as when a war is taking place in the area. > [@](#): > > The circumstances in which military evacuations are allowed are the following (GCIV Art. 49): > > The evacuation of a given area is possible if the safety of the population or imperative military reasons require it. [https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/evacuation-1/](https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/evacuation-1/) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2232 "2024-12-29T02:39:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The evidence has been laid out many times …liar. > [@Smapti](#): > > LOL. The Gazan MoH, that you mentioned in the previous post, are NOT combatants, “illegal” or otherwise. > [@Smapti](#): > > Hard to undercount when you’re describing 17-year-olds who were firing on Israeli soldiers as “murdered children”. Here is a list of Palestinian children killed in this war. It was compiled in January. > **[Know their names: Palestinian children killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza](https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/)** > > One out of every 65 children in Gaza has been killed by Israeli attacks since October 7, 2023. Let me know when you’ve scrolled past all of those killed before they reached their first birthday. How many of them were firing on Israeli soldiers? How long did it take you to scroll down to the 17 year olds? The MOH numbers don’t include the people trapped and missing under the rubble. It doesn’t include the three babies that died from hypothermia a few days ago. The numbers are likely to be a massive undercount. > [@Smapti](#): > > Good thing that isn’t happening, then. It is. [Urgent joint statement: Northern Gaza is being erased – global leaders must act now to end Israel’s atrocities | Oxfam International](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/urgent-joint-statement-northern-gaza-being-erased-global-leaders-must-act-now-end#:~:text=Under%20the%20guise%20of%20%E2%80%9Cevacuation,is%20forced%20displacement%20under%20gunfire). > **[Gaza: HRW accuses Israel of war crime with displacements](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8ygyem84jo)** > > The rights group says the forced evacuation of 1.9m people amounts to a crime against humanity. > [@Smapti](#): > > Such as when a war is taking place in the area. This _isn’t_ sufficient reason to order an evacuation, especially at the scale they have here. Here’s what you ommitted (from your cite) > [@](#): > > Military evacuation is possible under strictly limited conditions. These conditions must be interpreted restrictively: the commentaries written on the Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions explain that the evacuation of populations may never be used as a combat strategy and may never be carried out simply because of its practical efficiency in attaining a military objective. The term _imperative military reason_ (discussed later) assumes that no military alternative to evacuation exists. > > The circumstances in which military evacuations are allowed are the following (GCIV Art. 49): > > - The evacuation of a given area is possible if the safety of the population or imperative military reasons require it. > - Such evacuations must be temporary. Persons thus evacuated must be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased. > - Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory, except when it is impossible to avoid such displacement for material reasons. > - Such evacuations must be carried out with respect for the interests of the civilian population. They may not be evacuated to a region that is exposed to the dangers of war; the authorities undertaking these evacuations must ensure that the individuals are received in proper accommodation and are transported in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety, and nutrition; and family members must not be separated. > - The protecting power or its substitute, the ICRC, must be informed of any evacuations as soon as they have taken place. As Oxfam notes: the systematic destruction of housing, along with statements from Israeli politicians and IDF spokespeople make it clear that Palestinians won’t be allowed to return. In many areas hostilities have ceased: but people still aren’t allowed to return. And this bit here certainly isn’t happening: “They may not be evacuated to a region that is exposed to the dangers of war; the authorities undertaking these evacuations must ensure that the individuals are received in proper accommodation and are transported in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety, and nutrition; and family members must not be separated.” They are being kicked out to areas that are routinely targeted and bombed. Documented cases of families being split up. The conditions in other parts of Gaza are NOT satisfactory in terms of hygiene, health, safety, and nutrition. These “evacuations” are NOT in compliance with humanitarian law. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2233 "2024-12-29T02:52:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Here’s what you ommitted (from your cite) Which, of course, is all dependent on the Geneva Convention, which Israel is not obliged to adhere to because this is not a war between sovereign states. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Gazan MoH, that you mentioned in the previous post, are NOT combatants, “illegal” or otherwise. They’re Hamas. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Here is a list of Palestinian children killed in this war. It was compiled in January. …by al-Jazeera, the propaganda arm of the Qatari government, which has been fostering Hamas’ leadership, and which formerly handled comms for Osama bin Laden. Not a reliable source. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As Oxfam notes Hmm. I wonder who butters their bread? > **[Poverty and Inequality in Contemporary Russia - Oxfam Policy & Practice](https://policy-practice.oxfam.org/resources/poverty-and-inequality-in-contemporary-russia-269315/)** > > Oxfam has more than 60 year’s experience supporting people to overcome poverty the world over. Since 2003, Oxfam has been working in the Russian Federation, where it has applied its international knowledge to work with civil society partners from... ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2234 "2024-12-29T03:13:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which, of course, is all dependent on the Geneva Convention, which Israel is not obliged to adhere to because this is not a war between sovereign states. …it’s YOUR CITE. Either it’s applicable here or it’s not. If it is: then ALL of it is applicable. And if it isn’t: then why the fuck did you cite it in the first place? > [@Smapti](#): > > They’re Hamas. But NOT combatants: illegal or otherwise. > [@Smapti](#): > > …by al-Jazeera, The numbers and the names are accepted by both Israel and the United States of America. The _list is not in dispute_. They are names from the official registry. You can verify them yourself. Or do you not believe that any children at all have died that weren’t combatants? How many children that didn’t reach their first birthday do you think have been killed by the IDF so far in this war? Do you have an alternate number we can use? > [@Smapti](#): > > Hmm. I wonder who butters their bread? > > [Poverty and Inequality in Contemporary Russia - Oxfam Policy & Practice](https://policy-practice.oxfam.org/resources/poverty-and-inequality-in-contemporary-russia-269315/) From that paper: > [@](#): > > Oxfam has more than 60 years experience helping people overcome poverty the world over – **from Asia and Africa to the United Kingdom and the United States.** Since 2003, Oxfam has been working in the Russian Federation, where we have applied our international knowledge to our work with civil society partners from Murmansk to Vladivostok and many places in between. In 2012, advocacy on pro-poor social policy will become central to our in-country work. This briefing paper is meant both to outline Oxfam’s vision of the situation around poverty and inequality in Russia and to introduce our policy recommendations, which we will develop further as our work in this area rolls out. Is this just another case you you randomly googling things thinking they back up your random conspiracy theory? Here is the governance of Oxfam: > **[How we are organized | Oxfam International](https://www.oxfam.org/en/what-we-do/about/how-we-are-organized)** Here is the wiki page: > **[Oxfam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfam)** > > Oxfam is a British-founded confederation of 21 independent non-governmental organizations (NGOs), focusing on the alleviation of global poverty, founded in 1942 and led by Oxfam International. It began as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief in Oxford, UK, in 1942, to alleviate World War Two related hunger and continued in the aftermath of the war. By 1970, Oxfam had established an international presence, in India, Australia, Denmark, and North America. > Since 2005, Oxfam International has ... I’m not seeing where this is going. Who “butters their bread” and why should I be concerned about it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2235 "2024-12-29T03:23:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it’s YOUR CITE. > > Either it’s applicable here or it’s not. If it is: then ALL of it is applicable. And if it isn’t: then why the fuck did you cite it in the first place? You said they had no right to order an evacuation. I showed you where your holy “international law” says that they’re allowed to, even though in this case they have no obligation to abide by it anyway. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But NOT combatants They are terrorists and criminals who are not subject to the protections of the Geneva Convention. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Or do you not believe that any children at all have died that weren’t combatants? How many children that didn’t reach their first birthday do you think have been killed by the IDF so far in this war? Do you have an alternate number we can use? I never said there was no collateral damage. I said Hamas has a clear motive to misrepresent accidental deaths as “murder” and child soldiers as “bystanders”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not seeing where this is going. Who “butters their bread” and why should I be concerned about it? From my cite; > [@](#): > > Since 2003, Oxfam has been working in the Russian Federation, where it has applied its international knowledge to work with civil society partners from Murmansk to Vladivostok and many places in between. Nobody does business in Moscow without Czar Vlad’s imprimatur. What price has he demanded from them? What privileges are they being given in exchange for parroting the approved narrative? > [@](#): > > Let me know when you’ve scrolled past all of those killed before they reached their first birthday. How many of them were firing on Israeli soldiers? How long did it take you to scroll down to the 17 year olds? I only had to scroll about halfway down to get to the age that’s apparently old enough for you to be a suicide bomber. > **[Israelis say boy, 11, used as bomber](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/17/israel1)** > > Fatah accused of attack that failed when explosive in rucksack did not go off. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2236 "2024-12-29T03:34:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You said they had no right to order an evacuation. I showed you where your holy “international law” says that they’re allowed to, even though in this case they have no obligation to abide by it anyway. …your cite supports my position. It BACKS ME UP. International law says evacuations can be ordered in _very limited circumstances_: and those circumstances _do not apply here_. > [@Smapti](#): > > They are terrorists and criminals who are not subject to the protections of the Geneva Convention. They are not. > [@Smapti](#): > > I never said there was no collateral damage. So do you accept the names and the numbers? That thousands of children that were never armed and were never soldiers have been killed by the IDF? > [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas has a clear motive to misrepresent accidental deaths as “murder” and child soldiers as “bystanders”. I haven’t used the word “murder” in this context. The only misrepresentation going on here is from you: who randomly mentioned 17 year-old child-soldiers as if they represent a significant proportion of the casualty rate whilst providing (once again) ZERO evidence that this figure is significantly relevant. > [@Smapti](#): > > What price has he demanded from them? What privileges are they being given in exchange for parroting the approved narrative? It’s _your_ conspiracy theory. If you are going to be Just Asking Questions: it’s over to you to also provide answers. Its almost as if this is the first time you’ve heard of Oxfam and you are just making stuff up as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2237 "2024-12-29T04:15:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > your cite supports my position. It BACKS ME UP. International law says evacuations can be ordered in _very limited circumstances_: and those circumstances _do not apply here_. Except that they clearly DO apply. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They are not. Ahem. [https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/](https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/) > [@](#): > > October 8, 1997 HAMAS Of course, at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if you claimed Hamas doesn’t even exist. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s _your_ conspiracy theory. It’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s a FACT. Russia compiles compromising intelligence on organizations doing business in its territory and uses it to blackmail them into playing along with their agenda, and they engage in whataboutism and DARVO to paper over their own atrocities, because they know that western liberals experience collective guilt over atrocities their ancestors committed centuries ago and can be made to reflexively oppose anything if it’s framed in a “colonialist vs. native” way. They’ve been doing it for generations and it didn’t stop just because the flavor of their autocracy switched from left to right. Any organization that operates within Russia is suspect. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So do you accept the names and the numbers? That thousands of children that were never armed and were never soldiers have been killed by the IDF? I accept that collateral damage has happened in every war that has ever taken place in human history, in every nation and every era. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2238 "2024-12-29T06:48:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Except that they clearly DO apply. …I listed the reasons that they do NOT apply. The ones in your cite that you conveniently ignored. The “evacuations” are illegal under international law. As is the ongoing occupation. > [@Smapti](#): > > Ahem A low-level bureaucrat in the Ministry of Health who very well may have been a kid when Hamas first came to power who has never picked up a gun in their life is not a combatant, is not an illegal combatant, is not a terrorist, and is not a criminal. In the very same way as a low-level bureaucrat in the Netanyahu administration who somehow avoided military services is not a combatant, is not an illegal combatant, is not a terrorist, and is not a criminal, even though their leader is under indictment for warcrimes by the International Criminal Court. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not a conspiracy theory. Really. > [@Smapti](#): > > Russia compiles compromising intelligence on organizations doing business in its territory and uses it to blackmail them into playing along with their agenda, and they engage in whataboutism and DARVO to paper over their own atrocities, because they know that western liberals experience collective guilt over atrocities their ancestors committed centuries ago and can be made to reflexively oppose anything if it’s framed in a “colonialist vs. native” way. They’ve been doing it for generations and it didn’t stop just because the flavor of their autocracy switched from left to right. Any organization that operates within Russia is suspect. Not a SINGLE mention of Oxfam there. I was hoping you would be explaining who “butters their bread”. Instead you seem to be confirming that yes, this is a great big conspiracy theory. And you don’t have any evidence to support it. > [@Smapti](#): > > I accept that collateral damage has happened in every war that has ever taken place in human history, in every nation and every era. Do you accept the names and numbers? Does this mean you consider the Israeli children killed by Hamas on October the 7th were just collateral damage? It happens in every war that has ever taken place in human history, in every nation and every era, after all. Because I don’t accept it. What Hamas did on that day was an atrocity. A warcrime. And what the IDF are doing in Gaza is ALSO an atrocity. An ongoing warcrime. And its crossed the line into ethnic cleansing and genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2239 "2024-12-29T07:42:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The “evacuations” are illegal under international law. “International law” does not apply to a state’s internal affairs. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As is the ongoing occupation. Every inch of Gaza is already Israeli territory. Israel cannot by definition “occupy” itself. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A low-level bureaucrat in the Ministry of Health who very well may have been a kid when Hamas first came to power who has never picked up a gun in their life Is still a member of a terrorist organization that wants both of us dead. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you accept the names and numbers? Not particularly. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Does this mean you consider the Israeli children killed by Hamas on October the 7th were just collateral damage? No, because Hamas’ cause is unjust. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And what the IDF are doing in Gaza is ALSO an atrocity No, because Israel’s cause is just. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2240 "2024-12-29T23:32:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “International law” does not apply to a state’s internal affairs. …so again Smapti is just making stuff up. The “evacuations” aren’t Israel’s “internal affairs.” Because: > [@Smapti](#): > > Every inch of Gaza is already Israeli territory. Israel cannot by definition “occupy” itself. Gaza hasn’t been annexed yet. That is obviously the goal, even though there are people here that still deny it. But Gaza is, by definition, [occupied territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories). From the International Court of Justice: > [@ohchr](#): > > The landmark ruling of 19 July 2024 declared that Israel’s occupation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is unlawful, along with the associated settlement regime, annexation and use of natural resources. The Court added that Israel’s legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid. The ICJ mandated Israel to end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied) > [@Smapti](#): > > Is still a member of a terrorist organization that wants both of us dead. They aren’t a combatant, they aren’t an illegal combatant, they aren’t a terrorist, they aren’t a criminal, I doubt they even think about you or I and they’ve never wished that either of us were dead. > [@Smapti](#): > > Not particularly. Everybody else does: including Israel and the United States of America. > [@Smapti](#): > > No, because Hamas’ cause is unjust. > [@Smapti](#): > > No, because Israel’s cause is just. Ah yes, I forgot: Smapti is a _sociopath_. Shooting kids deliberately in the head is wrong, according to Smapti, unless they are Palestinian, in which case, its just fine. Because the cause is just. Smapti thinks raping and torturing prisoners is bad. Unless those prisoners happen to be Palestinian: then Smapti gives it the “thumbs up.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=111) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=113)