# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 113
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2241 "2024-12-30T01:44:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Every inch of Gaza is already Israeli territory. Israel cannot by definition “occupy” itself. > [@Smapti](#): > > Irrelevant, because as I stated, Gaza is not part of Israel, and not in the wink-and-a-nod way that the Bantustans were “independent” either. So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2242 "2024-12-30T01:53:35Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So which is it My thinking on this has changed over time. I currently hold that Gaza is Israeli territory by dint of Egypt abandoning its claim after 1967 and since Hamas has failed to establish a responsible government capable of exercising sovereignty. Have you asked Banquet\_Bear? He doesn’t even seem to know whose territory he thinks is being occupied. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Ah yes, I forgot: Smapti is a _sociopath_. > > Shooting kids deliberately in the head is wrong, according to Smapti, unless they are Palestinian, in which case, its just fine. Because the cause is just. Smapti thinks raping and torturing prisoners is bad. Unless those prisoners happen to be Palestinian: then Smapti gives it the “thumbs up.” You’d have to be a sociopath to think that motive doesn’t matter. A man who breaks into a house and kills its occupant is not morally equivalent to a homeowner who kills a burglar in self-defense. Tens of thousands of civilians died in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unforgivable war crime, right? Wrong, because it prevented a US invasion of Japan which would have caused many more casualties on both sides and it ended the war before Stalin could invade China and partition/annex it like he did to Germany and Korea, which would have resulted in a greatly reduced quality of life for countless millions of people for much longer. The deaths of those civilians, while regrettable, served a greater good, just as Israel is doing by eradicating Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2243 "2024-12-30T02:09:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The deaths of those civilians, while regrettable, served a greater good, just as Israel is doing by eradicating Hamas. …note: you are defending shooting innocent Palestinian kids in the head. You are defending the disappearing, sexual assault and torture of thousands of Palestinians: many of them, if not the majority, innocent of any crime. You are defending _atrocities_. It has nothing to do with Hamas. Because a six-year old Palestinian kid shot by an IDF sniper in the head does nothing to “eradicate Hamas.” > [@Smapti](#): > > He doesn’t even seem to know whose territory he thinks is being occupied. I cited the International Court of Justice. You’ve cited, as always, absolutely nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2244 "2024-12-30T02:13:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I cited the International Court of Justice. So, according to the International Court of Justice, what sovereign state is Gaza a part of? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > note: you are defending shooting innocent Palestinian kids in the head. You are defending the disappearing, sexual assault and torture of thousands of Palestinians: many of them, if not the majority, innocent of any crime. > > You are defending _atrocities_. I have done no such thing. You are waving the bloody shirt and making appeals to emotion and visceral disgust about things that unfortunately happen in every single war in human history in an attempt to pretend that this war is somehow different and unique, when the only thing that’s changed is that we didn’t have TikTok in the past. Give me a smartphone and send me to Europe in 1944 and I’ll produce “proof” that the Allies are committing atrocities and genociding German women and children. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2245 "2024-12-30T02:20:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Tens of thousands of civilians died in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unforgivable war crime, right? Wrong, because it prevented a US invasion of Japan which would have caused many more casualties on both sides and it ended the war before Stalin could invade China and partition/annex it like he did to Germany and Korea, which would have resulted in a greatly reduced quality of life for countless millions of people for much longer. The deaths of those civilians, while regrettable, served a greater good, just as Israel is doing by eradicating Hamas. Simply put, the ends justify the means… ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2246 "2024-12-30T02:23:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, according to the International Court of Justice, what sovereign state is Gaza a part of? …Gaza is _occupied_. You claimed they were not. > [@Smapti](#): > > making appeals to emotion Its the fucking pit. And we are witnessing a genocide. Absolutely I’m gonna be emotional here. And if you want to read that as an “appeal to emotion” I’m not stopping you. But the IDF are conducting a _slaughter of innocents_. A daily litany of atrocities. And you are defending it. Just take ownership of it already. Nobody believes this disingenuous act you are putting on. You let the mask slip the other day. We all know what you _really_ think. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2247 "2024-12-30T02:39:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Gaza is _occupied_. You claimed they were not. And you claim they are. If Israel is occupying Gaza then it must be the territory of some other state. Which state would that be? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And we are witnessing a genocide. The genocide was prevented on 10/7, no thanks to those like you who are cheering for Hamas to finish the job. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But the IDF are conducting a _slaughter of innocents_. A daily litany of atrocities. The IDF are building a better future for Israelis andGazans where both sides will live free of theocratic terror, while Hamas rains down rocket fire on people’s houses, send their own children off to die, and use the sick and dying as human shields while they threaten to kill their own “citizens” if they try to escape. And you’re defending that because blaming the Jews makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside like you’re the hero in a Marvel movie and you never have to deal with moral ambiguity or having to get your hands dirty for the common good. What you want is a worse future for everyone. Keep having your pity party. I should’ve listened to Babale and stopped engaging with you months ago. Have fun on my ignore list, you monster. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2248 "2024-12-30T02:42:41Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Simply put, the ends justify the means Of course it does. Would you rather live in a world where slavery is still legal because invading the South would have caused civilian casualties? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2249 "2024-12-30T03:04:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > like you’re the hero in a Marvel movie Says the guy that went from his ~~Rorschach~~ Antifa mask to a Captain ~~America~~ Antifa shield when really you’re not even Ozymandias as you sit there with your Infinity Gauntlet dreaming of being Thanos. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2250 "2024-12-30T03:06:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And you claim they are. …because they _are_. Even the US State department agrees with me. [https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/](https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/) > [@Smapti](#): > > The genocide was prevented on 10/7, no thanks to those like you who are cheering for Hamas to finish the job. Genocide requires several elements: none of them were present on 10/7. And no, I wasn’t cheering for Hamas to finish the job. I’ve repeatedly called it an atrocity, a war crime. Unlike you: I don’t hesitate to call out an atrocity, no matter _what_ the cause may be. > [@Smapti](#): > > The IDF are building a better future for Israelis andGazans where both sides will live free of theocratic terror, The IDF are systematically destroying the necessities of life for Gazans. Infrastructure. Housing. Water. Food. Hospitals. Another baby died from hypothermia last night. > [@Smapti](#): > > while Hamas rains down rocket fire on people’s houses Since October the 8th the IDF have killed over 45,000 people by raining bombs and rockets and sniper fire on civilian houses. In that same time: how many civilains have Hamas killed by rocket fire? > [@Smapti](#): > > send their own children off to die, and use the sick and dying as human shields while they threaten to kill their own “citizens” if they try to escape. Those citizens are being targeted by the IDF. Hamas are not “hiding” behind civilians. The IDF are deliberately targeting civilians and killing them. The IDF don’t even know how many Hamas they have killed. > [@Smapti](#): > > And you’re defending that because blaming the Jews You fucking liar. I’ve never even so much as mentioned this, let alone “blamed the Jews.” Not even close. Not even remotely. > [@Smapti](#): > > What you want is a worse future for everyone. What I want is for Israel to stop committing genocide. > [@Smapti](#): > > I should’ve listened to Babale and stopped engaging with you months ago. Bable turned into a monster. But I suspect you’ve always been this way. > [@Smapti](#): > > Have fun on my ignore list, you monster. I’m the monster? I don’t recall ever using the phrase “pest control” even when talking about my worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2251 "2024-12-30T03:06:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course it does. Remind me? The difference between you and Hamas is what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2252 "2024-12-30T03:08:52Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The difference between you and Hamas is what exactly? Hamas is an international terrorist organization and I’m a guy on the internet. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Says the guy that went from his ~~Rorschach~~ Antifa mask to a Captain ~~America~~ Antifa shield when really you’re not even Ozymandias as you sit there with your Infinity Gauntlet dreaming of being Thanos I know you think that making fun of my avatars is some sort of deeply insightful and ego-annihilating insult that cuts me to the bone and proves to everyone that I’m not actually an elite Nazi-fighting BAMF like you assume I imagine myself to be. They’re just pictures that I like. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2253 "2024-12-30T03:10:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > and I’m a guy on the internet. A fact that we should all be grateful for. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2254 "2024-12-30T04:00:33Z")
Of course the hospital is harboring Hamas members. Harboring people is literally the purpose for existence of hospitals. That’s what they’re for. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2255 "2024-12-30T15:38:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The genocide was prevented on 10/7, no thanks to those like you who are cheering for Hamas to finish the job. Yeah, this is really what it comes down to. All this soying out over Smapti’s phrasing would mean a _lot_ more if it didn’t come from a self admitted supporter of Hezbollah, the Houthis, and of course, Hamas. When the guys Banquet Buddy is a huge fan of are murdering and raping, he celebrates decolonization and the oppressed having their voices heard. All they’re doing is killing people he clearly considers subhuman vermin who are to be cleansed from the land, even if he hides behind academic terms like “colonialists”. It really just comes down to this quote: _When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles._ On Oct 7, for a brief moment in a limited geographical area, the Gazan’s government and armed force, Hamas, showed _precisely_ what it would do should it ever be in a position of strength. That’s _exactly_ what fuckers like Banquet Buddy wants, which is why they try _so hard_ to weaken Israel and put it back into that position. When Hamas rampaged through Israeli towns, raping and murdering peacenik kibutznik hippies who were naive enough to live next to and work with the Gazans and think that this is the path to peace, Banquet Buddy said nothing. Why should he? The world was right, in his view. The ~~ubermensch~~ “indigenous people of the land” are ~~murdering the untermensch~~ “making their oppressed voices heard through the process of decolonization”. All was right in the world. But as soon as that moment of strength was over, the fun of seeing Jews butchered had ended, NOW Banquet Buddy is supremely concerned with human rights. Because when his side is weak, he seems to bind the stronger side with morality that the stronger side believes in; and when his side is strong, all that goes out the window, because “oppression”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2256 "2024-12-30T15:45:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Genocide requires several elements: none of them were present on 10/7. And no, I wasn’t cheering for Hamas to finish the job. I’ve repeatedly called it an atrocity, a war crime. Unlike you: I don’t hesitate to call out an atrocity, no matter _what_ the cause may be. Yes, terrorist supporters like you are very good at talking out of both sides of your mouth. You’ve repeatedly called it all those things, much in the same way that Jill Stein eventually called Putin a war criminal - after applying the term to everyone from Assad to Bibi to Obama, Biden, and Kamala, thus making it completely meaningless. Further, you claim to oppose Oct 7, yet _every single post you make_ demands that Israel not respond to Oct 7 and instead throw the gates of Gaza wide open, so they can rearm for much bigger version of Oct 7 in the future If I tell you that I’m opposed to you getting rape, but then set you up on dozens of blind dates with convicted rapists, you can safely conclude that I am lying. Likewise, you can keep _saying_ that you are opposed to Oct 7, but you very clearly _aren’t_; you want to ensure Hamas survives in Gaza and continues to do this again… And again… And again. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2257 "2024-12-30T16:00:12Z")
Picking a “side” in the current conflict in the Middle East is complicated by the fact that most folks don’t correctly identify what the sides even are. The choice isn’t between Netanyahu and Hamas, because they’re both on the same side. The choice is between the people like Netanyahu and Hamas, who want violence, and the people who don’t want violence. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2258 "2024-12-30T16:20:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course the hospital is harboring Hamas members. Harboring people is literally the purpose for existence of hospitals. That’s what they’re for. No, hospitals are for harboring patients who need medical care. Not for harboring young, very healthy, strong, and heavily armed terrorists. Yes, there were about 300 patients in the hospital. But there were also 240 terrorists. Included in the 240 are 15 identified as MASS MURDERERS who carried out the massacre of Israeli civilians in their homes at 6:30 in the morning on October 7. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-completes-raid-on-north-gaza-hospital-says-some-240-terror-suspects-arrested/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-completes-raid-on-north-gaza-hospital-says-some-240-terror-suspects-arrested/) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2259 "2024-12-30T16:25:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Picking a “side” in the current conflict in the Middle East is complicated by the fact that most folks don’t correctly identify what the sides even are. The choice isn’t between Netanyahu and Hamas, because they’re both on the same side. Only if you insist that there must only be exactly two sides, in which case you could jam Netanyahu in with Hamas. But a more intelligent view of the situation is recognizing that there are at least a dozen sides. If you assume that Netanyahu and Ben Gvir and Shas are all one unified side, their actions make no sense. If you recognize that Shas are genuine religious nuts, Ben Gvir is a genuine fascist, and Netanyahu is a master wheeler and dealer coalition builder who will go to any length and adopt any position necessary to stay in power - suddenly everything is perfectly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2260 "2024-12-30T16:39:07Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Not for harboring young, very healthy, strong, and heavily armed terrorists. Holy Trump in the Middle East, Batman! > [@Babale](#): > > All this soying out over Smapti’s phrasing would mean a _lot_ more if it didn’t come from a self admitted supporter of Hezbollah, the Houthis, and of course, Hamas. And here I was hoping some of Israel’s other supporters would at least condemn his language, instead it’s defended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=112) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=114)