# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 115
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2281 "2024-12-30T20:49:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not certain what confessions that refers to, but i can’t recall ever seeing Banquet\_Bear speaking good Houthi, Hamas, or Hezbollah Not openly, because he is a snivelling coward hiding behind plausible deniability (so long as we are in the “you are stronger than me” stage; should “Palestine be Free from the River to the Sea”, the open purge of the ~~subhuman Jews~~ “colonizers” will begin.) But here he is openly saying that he thinks that being “unabashedly pro-Hezbollah and pro-Houthi” is a good thing: > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/244): > > > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/241): > > > > That’s because he’s also unabashedly pro-Hezbollah and pro-Houthi > > …there’s a reason for that. > > But this isn’t the time nor the place for that debate. As I said: Resistance is _uncomfortable_ . I’m sure he’ll be a long shortly to explain that _this_ isn’t the time and place to own his support of the Houthis and Hezbollah, either. Not until we get to the stage where HIS side is strong and WE are week. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2282 "2024-12-30T21:05:05Z")
Keep it up, Babale. You definitely are coming across as the sane, non-psychopath here. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2283 "2024-12-30T21:34:33Z")
Yep, who I’m sure is quite willing to call out and condemn atrocities…some day. It’s just, before that, (s)he needs to spend a dozen\* posts accusing BB of being a terrorist sympathizer. \* …based on the last 50 or so posts. How far back in the 2,200 posts is it like this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2284 "2024-12-30T21:47:52Z")
Openly? Is this some sort of new, internet slangy definition of “openly”, like how “literally” now can mean “metaphorically”? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2285 "2024-12-30T22:21:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When the guys Banquet Buddy is a huge fan of are murdering and raping, …a while ago I went through severe hardship. I’ve practically lost my business. My power and phone got cut off. I had to spend days in darkness. I had to beg for charity. Of course, I also had to stop posting here for a while. When I returned to the dope: Babale greeted me with a joke about how they thought I had gotten blown up by a pager. And when I told them what happened to me: they said I deserved it. Just in case you wanted to know what sort of person Babale is. I used to have respect for you. But you’ve gotten _obsessed_ with me. Not just about Gaza. There was that weird thread a while ago about nuclear power where you kept _insisting_ I was arguing for something that I clearly was not. And it’s crossed over to hate. And it doesn’t matter what I say any more. Babale will accuse me of the most vile and hateful of things. In the meantime: the sixth Palestinian child has died this week of hypothermia. There has been an international call from doctors and humanitarian agencies for the release of Dr. Hussam Abu Safiya and the rest of the medical team detained a few days ago. Tedros Ghebreyesus reports that the remaining patients of Kamal Adwan were evacuated to Indonesian Hospital, “which is itself out of function.” In Gaza City: both Al-Ahli Hospital and Al-Wafa Rehabilitation Hospital were attacked and damaged. The war on hospitals and the war on children is ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2286 "2024-12-30T22:23:33Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But there were also 240 terrorists. …there weren’t 240 terrorists. > [@chappachula](#): > > 15 identified as MASS MURDERERS There are 15 that Israel _claims_ are mass murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2287 "2024-12-30T22:51:06Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t know his full posting history but he certainly seems willing to condemn 10/7 in very clear terms He claims to denounce it while simultaneously denying that pretty much every aspect of it ever happened at all. Dead babies? Hoax. Rapes? The victims are lying. Human shields who are shot at if they try to flee? “Too stubborn to leave their homes”. Weapons caches in hospitals? Staged. Rocket fire? Israel shooting at itself. Confessions? Forced. Tunnels? Fake. Child soldiers? Umm… LOOK OVER THERE! Charter calling for the death of all Jews? That was the old Hamas, they’re not like that anymore. > [@](#): > > while the various Bibi apologists here will not concede a single war crime, except obliquely (atrocities happen _everywhere!_) I don’t know where you got the idea that I or anyone else in this thread is a “Bibi apologist”. I’ve described him multiple times as a Palpatine-esque figure who enabled Hamas for years and is exploiting this war to keep himself in power. The sooner he’s gone, the better for everyone involved. Have some Israeli soldiers gone too far? Obviously. Does that make the entire war illegitimate or constitute a genocide? Only if you think the Civil War was a genocide against Southern whites and the Pacific campaign was a genocide against the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2288 "2024-12-30T23:04:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He claims to denounce it while simultaneously denying that pretty much every aspect of it ever happened at all. …liar. For example: this. > [@Smapti](#): > > Dead babies? Hoax. I have never denied that Hamas killed children, killed babies, on October the 7th. They did. And it was an _atrocity_. But 40 babies _weren’t beheaded_ by Hamas on October 7th. _That_ was my claim. And that claim is supported by all of the evidence that I’ve provided to you over and over again. Look how your claim has morphed from “saying that babies weren’t beheaded” to “dead babies was a hoax.” It’s a trick. Slight of hand. And this list is gish gallop. You can’t actually prove that these are my positions because either they aren’t, or you’ve taken what I’ve said out of context. Just like the hospitals claim. > [@Smapti](#): > > Does that make the entire war illegitimate or constitute a genocide? I’ll trust the assessment of Amnesty International, Oxfam, Human Rights Watch and The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention over you on this. I’m pretty sure that none of these organizations have ever described the actions taken by the IDF as “pest control.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2289 "2024-12-30T23:26:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …a while ago I went through severe hardship. I’ve practically lost my business. My power and phone got cut off. I had to spend days in darkness. I had to beg for charity. Of course, I also had to stop posting here for a while. > > When I returned to the dope: Babale greeted me with a joke about how they thought I had gotten blown up by a pager. And when I told them what happened to me: they said I deserved it. > > Just in case you wanted to know what sort of person Babale is. Cute, but the moralizing would work much better if we forget about the kind of person YOU are: the kind of person who says that there are plenty of reasons to support people whose motto is “death to my home country, death to the country I live in now, a curse on my people” - and who says “sorry bub, resistance is uncomfortable” when I express my dismay. So, you know, I care about you and your misfortune _exactly_ as much as you seem to care about me and the misfortune the Houthis would love to bestow upon me and my people. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I used to have respect for you. I’m glad I rectified that error; respect from a braindead “West Bad” Tankie like _you_ is the deepest mark of shame. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2290 "2024-12-30T23:34:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the kind of person who says that there are plenty of reasons to support people whose motto is “death to my home country, death to the country I live in now, a curse on my people” …I support the innocent people being slaughtered by the IDF. I’ve said since the start of this “war” that Hamas are guilty of atrocities and should be held to account. But we’ve gone _beyond that now_. In fact: we went beyond that from the start. The genocidal rhetoric from Israeli leadership was there from the beginning. Its just back then: most people didn’t want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2291 "2024-12-30T23:38:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He claims to denounce it while simultaneously denying that pretty much every aspect of it ever happened at all. > > Dead babies? Hoax. > Rapes? The victims are lying. > [etc…] The irony of you posting this list after my last post where I said that attacks on BB were being used as a deflection from addressing points. I can tell with many of these claims that, at best, they will be more nuanced than this summary because I’m aware that international news agencies have also disputed some of these claims, in whole or in part. So it’s easy to compile a list like that against anyone who isn’t an out-and-out IDF zealot. But, for the sake of argument; I don’t care. I don’t care if BB at some other time said something bad, it seems Babale did too (e.g. the pager comments). All I care about is who is addressing the points being put to them now and it seems @Banquet_Bear is responding to points and e.g. @Babale isn’t. > [@Smapti](#): > > Have some Israeli soldiers gone too far? Obviously. Well that’s a start, and I appreciate it. I think it’s still diminishing things a lot though; both in not naming any specific event, and implying that the people deciding the whole strategy and armaments to be used aren’t at fault, just one or two “bad apples”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2292 "2024-12-30T23:40:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ll trust the assessment of Amnesty International, Oxfam, Human Rights Watch and The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention over you on this. Wait, didn’t you know that those are all branches of Hamas? Everyone in Amnesty International must die! In a totally just and peaceful way, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2293 "2024-12-30T23:43:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I support the innocent people being slaughtered by the IDF So do you take back this? > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/244): > > > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/241): > > > > That’s because he’s also unabashedly pro-Hezbollah and pro-Houthi > > …there’s a reason for that. > > But this isn’t the time nor the place for that debate. As I said: Resistance is _uncomfortable_ . ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2294 "2024-12-30T23:44:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So do you take back this? …take back what? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2295 "2024-12-30T23:48:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > So do you take back this? > > …take back what?. God, your games are so fucking tiring. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2296 "2024-12-30T23:55:28Z")
Are you saying there’s _not_ a reason Piker praises hezbollah? That it’s just random chance? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2297 "2024-12-30T23:56:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > God, your games are so fucking tiring. …what games? I said yes, there are reasons why Piker is unabashedly pro-Hezbollah and pro-Houthi. And that resistance is complicated. I also said I _don’t even like Piker_. I find some of his positions _contemptible_. So what exactly do you want me to “take back?” While we are at it: do you take back your support of the IDF? Because they’ve killed more innocent children this year than Hezbollah and Houthi and Hamas combined. By orders of magnitude. Do you condemn those killings? Do you condemn the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza? Do you condemn the attacks on hospitals up and down the strip? Do you condemn the siege of Gaza? The deliberate and systematic destruction of housing that has started to result in the deaths of children from hypothermia? Do you condemn the deliberate targeting and killing of children by IDF snipers? ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2298 "2024-12-30T23:57:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > How far back in the 2,200 posts is it like this? All the way back. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2299 "2024-12-31T00:50:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well that’s a start, and I appreciate it. > I think it’s still diminishing things a lot though; both in not naming any specific event, and implying that the people deciding the whole strategy and armaments to be used aren’t at fault, just one or two “bad apples”. I haven’t seen a specific incident which would lead me to believe that the government or military is deliberately attempting to exterminate the Gazans. Most of the original reporting coming out of Gaza is coming from sources that are openly anti-Israel and cannot be taken at face value, and are being distributed by other sources that also have a baked-in anti-Israsl bias or which want western liberals talking about Gaza so they won’t talk about Ukraine or the Uyghurs. Pretty much all of what’s being brought up in this thread is simple collateral damage that is being presented out of context - the mere fact that children have been shot to death does not prove that Israelis shot them or that they were shot at on purpose or that the people doing the shooting were under orders to kill all Arabs whether they’re combatants or not. I’m not seeing mass graves or concentration camps or gas chambers or execution squads or death marches or anything else that would indicate actual deliberate mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2300 "2024-12-31T01:03:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you saying there’s _not_ a reason Piker praises hezbollah? That it’s just random chance?. There are _reasons_ to be unabashedly pro Hezbollah, like wanting to see all Jews killed. There are _reasons_ to be pro Nazi, or pro Trump, or in favor of the recent New Zealand treaty amendment. Presumably, those aren’t the sorts of _reasons_ that Banquet Buddy referred to here. If they _were_, he wouldn’t follow it up with “resistance is uncomfortable”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > While we are at it: do you take back your support of the IDF? Resisting Hamas’ attacks on Israel is, as you put it, uncomfortable. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because they’ve killed more innocent children this year than Hezbollah and Houthi and Hamas combined. This year, when those groups have been torn to shreds by targeted IDF strikes. Over their lifetimes, though? You’d be surprised to learn just how many Arabs your precious Hezbollah has killed, or how many Yemenis starved (_actually starved_ to death, not Gaza “starved”) due to the Houthis. But you have “reasons” to support them. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you condemn the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza? I would certainly condemn such a thing if it ever happened. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you condemn the attacks on hospitals up and down the strip? I condemn the fact that Hamas attacks Israeli out of locations like hospitals, leading to civilian casualties when they are struck back. I do not, of course, condemn Israel for choosing not to refuse to respond. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you condemn the siege of Gaza? I condemn Hamas for choosing to govern Gaza in such a way that every bit of material wealth that enters the region is harnessed for the war against Israel, and the blockade this necessintates. I don’t blame Israel for not taking the suicidal step of allowing Iran and Russia to freely arm Hamas. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The deliberate and systematic destruction of housing that has started to result in the deaths of children from hypothermia? Do you condemn the deliberate targeting and killing of children by IDF snipers? Again, I’d condemn these things if they actually happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=114) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=116)