# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 116
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2301 "2024-12-31T01:42:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I haven’t seen a specific incident which would lead me to believe that the government or military is deliberately attempting to exterminate the Gazans. I didn’t talk about extermination, I talked about atrocities. I mean, I do agree with other posters that this is a genocide in progress, but step 1 is at least getting the IDF-defenders to concede that atrocities have happened. You said upthread that you believed some soldiers may have “gone too far”. If you can’t give an example of what falls under this description though, it’s a performative concession. > [@Smapti](#): > > Most of the original reporting coming out of Gaza is coming from sources that are openly anti-Israel and cannot be taken at face value _Most_ of the original reporting, so you’re conceding that it is not only anti-Israeli sources? What do you think of that reporting, are you dismissive of it? Why? Actually, what am I saying!? Of course anyone that criticizes the IDF, whether that be charities, governments or even Jews, must be anti-Israel. So a fair source criticizing Israel is a _logical impossibility_, and the people that do so just invent examples of war crimes and lists of civilian deaths, right? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2302 "2024-12-31T01:59:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If they _were_, he wouldn’t follow it up with “resistance is uncomfortable”. …resistance _is_ uncomfortable. Māori fought for their rights. Some _died_ for their rights. Over the next few months there will be occupations. Possibly violence. I’m not comfortable with any of that. But the world is a complicated place. > [@Babale](#): > > Resisting Hamas’ attacks on Israel is, as you put it, uncomfortable. So that’s a “no” then. > [@Babale](#): > > This year, when those groups have been torn to shreds by targeted IDF strikes. Along with tens of thousands of innocent children. > [@Babale](#): > > Over their lifetimes, though? You’d be surprised to learn just how many Arabs your precious Hezbollah has killed, or how many Yemenis starved (_actually starved_ to death, not Gaza “starved”) due to the Houthis. So yes: Israel _have_ clearly killed more innocent children this year than Hezbollah and Houthi and Hamas combined. Hundreds in the West Bank. Hundreds in Lebanon. Tens of thousands in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > But you have “reasons” to support them. I never said I supported them. > [@Babale](#): > > I would certainly condemn such a thing if it ever happened. Thats odd. There used to be hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in northern Gaza, but just a few days ago I quoted the US ambassador to Israel who claimed there were no more than 15,000 people left there. And the IDF have ordered those remaining to leave lest they risk getting killed. What happened to all of those people? Where did they go? And for those that are still living: do they have homes to return to if they were ever to be allowed back? > [@Babale](#): > > I condemn the fact that Hamas attacks Israeli out of locations like hospitals Which attacks in particular are you talking about? Can you be specific? Names, dates, hospital? > [@Babale](#): > > I do not, of course, condemn Israel for choosing not to refuse to respond. Attacking hospital without evidence they are being used in “acts harmful to the enemy” are violations of international humanitarian law. They are warcrimes. Targeting the entirety of the healthcare system and systematically taking it down, one by one, is genocidal. > [@Babale](#): > > I condemn Hamas for choosing to govern Gaza in such a way that every bit of material wealth that enters the region is harnessed for the war against Israel, and the blockade this necessintates. I don’t blame Israel for not taking the suicidal step of allowing Iran and Russia to freely arm Hamas. So I’ll take this not only as a resounding NO you don’t condemn the IDF, but also a resounding YES on the siege. You are making it abundantly clear you support the genocide of the Palestinian people. Full mask off here folks. > [@Babale](#): > > Again, I’d condemn these things if they actually happened. They are happening, and I’ve provided cites that have been scrupulously fact-checked, including from the New York Times, that demonstrate that its happening. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2303 "2024-12-31T02:20:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You said upthread that you believed some soldiers may have “gone too far”. If you can’t give an example of what falls under this description though, it’s a performative concession. Atrocities occur in all wars, therefore atrocities must have occurred in this one. QED. If you know of a specific incident I should be outraged about then stop holding out on me. > [@Mijin](#): > > _Most_ of the original reporting, so you’re conceding that it is not only anti-Israeli sources? > What do you think of that reporting, are you dismissive of it? Why? I say “most” because, believe it or not, I have not personally examined the bona fides of every single media source reporting on the war. > [@Mijin](#): > > Actually, what am I saying!? Of course anyone that criticizes the IDF, whether that be charities, governments or even Jews, must be anti-Israel. So a fair source criticizing Israel is a _logical impossibility_, and the people that do so just invent examples of war crimes and lists of civilian deaths, right? If you’re not interested in having a serious discussion on the topic, then I won’t waste your time. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2304 "2024-12-31T02:56:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Atrocities occur in all wars, therefore atrocities must have occurred in this one. QED. Two reasons this talking point is stupid: Firstly because conflicts are not all the same. Some are much worse than others in the proportion of force used against combatants versus civilians, and some cross the line into _genocide_. All the data is showing that in this conflict, where more tons of explosives have been dropped than London and Dresden _times three_, and tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in an area the size of Vegas…the IDF is way over on the wrong side of this scale. And secondly, and more importantly, _we condemn atrocities_. All these rhetorical attempts at “whatabout what America did in Iraq” – yeah I condemn those actions, including the invasion in the first place. I’m glad that at least some people faced justice and wish it would have been more, and that there had been more reparations. So the implication of hypocrisy doesn’t land at all, and the whatabout boils down to “Please can we talk about anything other than what the IDF is doing?” > [@Smapti](#): > > If you know of a specific incident I should be outraged about then stop holding out on me. Wait, what? Firstly, there are several being discussed in the last few posts, such as the “evacuation” of northern Gaza and the hospital. But secondly, there is a long list of incidents given by the UN, ICJ and organizations such as human rights watch. Are you seriously suggesting that up to now you are unaware of any crimes? Well, OK, let’s start with targeted bombings of refugee camps. If such a thing happened would you consider that a war crime? > [@Smapti](#): > > I say “most” because, believe it or not, I have not personally examined the bona fides of every single media source reporting on the war. Yet you seem very confident in suggesting that most are anti-Israel. As I say, they are anti-Israel _by definition_; by criticizing any way that this conflict is being executed. > [@Smapti](#): > > If you’re not interested in having a serious discussion on the topic, then I won’t waste your time. Yes, that moment of sarcasm, in a Pit thread, means you don’t need to engage any more. And you were _so close_ to admitting that any specific event, in this conflict that has seen tens of thousands of women and children killed constitutes a war crime. Geez, me and my big mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2305 "2024-12-31T02:57:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Along with tens of thousands of innocent children. With 45,000 dead total, that seems quite far fetched. So par for the course for your claims. > **[Gaza death toll passes 45,000 as UN school suffers new deadly strike](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/12/1158206)** > > Authorities in Gaza reported on Monday that more than 45,000 people have been killed in the enclave in the last 14 months, as humanitarians condemned new deadly airstrikes across the war-torn Strip, including on a UN school-turned-shelter. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …resistance _is_ uncomfortable. Māori fought for their rights. Some _died_ for their rights. Over the next few months there will be occupations. Possibly violence. I’m not comfortable with any of that. But the world is a complicated place. Yep. So did we Israelis. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I never said I supported them. More game playing. If I said “Nick Fuentes is a whole hearted NAZI!” and EvilBear said “There are reasons for that. Resistance is _uncomfortable_”, we would all agree that EvilBear is clearly a Nazi, even if he later tried to dodge with “I never said I _agreed_ with those reasons!” Funnily enough, that’s exactly the sort of game Fuentes likes to play with his Nazi beliefs. You remind me of him. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2306 "2024-12-31T03:11:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > With 45,000 dead total, that seems quite far fetched. So par for the course for your claims. > > [Gaza death toll passes 45,000 as UN school suffers new deadly strike | UN News](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/12/1158206) …the headline from your cite is quite telling: "Gaza death toll passes 45,000 **as UN school suffers new deadly strike."** > [@](#): > > “I have been to Nasser Hospital this morning. **One of the children I spoke to her name was Mona, 17 years old; she has very severe injuries to her leg - she had very severe shrapnel wounds - and she was in the hospital with her sister…their mother was crushed to death under the rubble.”** > > Another victim, two-year old Julia, suffered severe head trauma and lost her sight in one eye; her five-year-old brother also had a serious head injury. > > Originally from Gaza City, the youngsters and their family “have been forcibly displaced seven or eight times,” Ms. Wateridge said. “They ended up in the [UNRWA] school, and they’ve been there for the last seven months, and now this – it just feels very hopeless.” I wonder why you would link to a cite that so obviously supports my position so well that I don’t even have to look for my own cite. > [@](#): > > The development followed an update from the head of the UN Children’s Fund, [UNICEF](https://www.unicef.org/), that **more than 14,500 youngsters have been reportedly killed in Gaza**. Many thousands more are believed buried under the rubble. > > … > > “Virtually all 1.1 million children in Gaza are in urgent need of protection and mental health support,” she added, amid media reports that Israeli military activity in the last 24 hours has left at least 69 Palestinians dead , from Beit Lahia in the north to Rafah in the south. Thanks for the cite that proves I’m correct. > [@Babale](#): > > If I said “Nick Fuentes is a whole hearted NAZI!” and EvilBear said “There are reasons for that. Resistance is _uncomfortable_”, we would all agree that EvilBear is clearly a Nazi, even if he later tried to dodge with “I never said I _agreed_ with those reasons!” What **you** are doing is game playing. I never said I supported them. That really should be the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2307 "2024-12-31T03:34:45Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > All the data is showing that in this conflict, where more tons of explosives have been dropped than London and Dresden _times three_, and tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in an area the size of Vegas…the IDF is way over on the wrong side of this scale. Volume of ordnance used does not prove genocidal intent. The US dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we did in all of WWII - was the Vietnam war a genocide? > [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly, there are several being discussed in the last few posts, such as the “evacuation” of northern Gaza and the hospital Which are also not genocidal acts. The evacuation of northern Gaza is to protect civilians by clearing them out of the areas where fighting is taking place. That hospitals have been used as weapons depots, barracks, and staging areas for attacks is indisputable, unless you’re Banquet\_Bear, in which case the rules of tag apply and as long as Hamas is “on base” Israel just has to stand there and let themselves be killed. > [@Mijin](#): > > But secondly, there is a long list of incidents given by the UN, ICJ and organizations such as human rights watch. The UN has had an anti-Israel bias for decades and is little more at this point than an extension of the Russian government. Ditto the ICJ. Human Rights Watch are radical pacifists who would have agreed with Gandhi that the Jews should have allowed Hitler to kill them all. I do not acknowledge them as unbiased sources. > [@Mijin](#): > > All these rhetorical attempts at “whatabout what America did in Iraq” I never said anything about Iraq. That’s because it wasn’t a justifiable war. I have mentioned WWII and the Civil War, but funny enough nobody wants to talk about the civilian casualties the Allies and the Union inflicted, let alone say that it was an unforgivable atrocity. > [@Mijin](#): > > Well, OK, let’s start with targeted bombings of refugee camps. If such a thing happened would you consider that a war crime? That depends, because in Gaza “refugee camp” has a completely different meaning than the common sense one, where fully-developed neighborhoods where families have been living for generations are designated as “camps” because treating the population as permanently homeless and stateless benefits those who want to paint Israel in the worst possible light. In top of that, those “camps” are also frequently used as staging areas by Hamas, just as they use hospitals, schools, and places of worship, because Hamas does not respect the sanctity of civilian lives. > [@Mijin](#): > > they are anti-Israel _by definition_; by criticizing any way that this conflict is being executed They are anti-Israel because they deny Israel’s right to exist and cheer for its destruction. > [@Mijin](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that up to now you are unaware of any crimes? Give me your smoking gun, then. Your incident where you can 100% say there is absolutely no legitimate military purpose being served, the source is unimpeachable, the facts are not in dispute, there’s no excuse for this, the only way this makes sense is if Israel is trying to indiscriminately kill as many Arabs as possible incident. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2308 "2024-12-31T03:41:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Give me your smoking gun, then. Your incident where you can 100% say there is absolutely no legitimate military purpose being served And there’s your out, since, as you said, ‘the ends justify the means’. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2309 "2024-12-31T03:51:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > learing them out of the areas where fighting is taking place. That hospitals have been used as weapons depots, barracks, and staging areas for attacks is indisputable …which is why you’ve provided absolutely ZERO evidence of this in this thread. Neither have Israel or the IDF. The evidence overwhelmingly supports my position, not yours. > [@Smapti](#): > > Which are also not genocidal acts. The genocidal acts are documented by the Amnesty International report, the Human Rights Watch report, the UN special committee, and the case bought by South Africa to the International Court of Justice. Citations below. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Ammnesty International: > > [Amnesty concludes Israel is committing genocide in Gaza](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/) > > > [@](#): > > > > “Amnesty International’s report demonstrates that Israel has carried out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention, with the specific intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza. These acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting on Palestinians in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. Month after month, Israel has treated Palestinians in Gaza as a subhuman group unworthy of human rights and dignity, demonstrating its intent to physically destroy them,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International. > > Human Rights Watch: > > [Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza | Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza) > > > [@](#): > > > > - Israeli authorities have deliberately inflicted conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of part of the population in Gaza by intentionally depriving Palestinian civilians there of adequate access to water, most likely resulting in thousands of deaths. > > - In doing so, Israeli authorities are responsible for the crime against humanity of extermination and for acts of genocide. The pattern of conduct, coupled with statements suggesting that some Israeli officials wished to destroy Palestinians in Gaza, may amount to the crime of genocide. > > The UN Special Comittee: > [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide) > > > [@](#): > > > > Israel’s warfare in Gaza is consistent with the characteristics of genocide, with mass civilian casualties and life-threatening conditions intentionally imposed on Palestinians there, the UN Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices\* said in a new [report](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-report-special-committee-investigate-israeli-practices-affecting) released today. > > _The Lemkin Institute_ for _Genocide_ Prevention > > [https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide) > > > [@](#): > > > > Since 7 October, Israel has carried out a systematic campaign of mass killing against innocent Palestinian civilians, along with the destruction of civilian infrastructure, including housing, cultural and religious sites, and medical facilities. Its military operations have also led to disruptions in the supply of essential services, including water, electricity, and telecommunications. Additionally, the almost three-month siege that has been illegally imposed on the enclave, the effects of which are increased by persistent interruptions in the supply of humanitarian aid, only increases the suffering of the Palestinian population. > > > > The Lemkin Institute believes that Israel’s retaliation against Palestinians amounts not only to war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also to genocide, as also asserted by, among others, the former Director of the New York Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber. > > The International Court of Justice: > > [Israel must comply with ICJ ruling](https://amnesty.org.nz/israel-must-comply-with-icj-ruling/) > > > [@](#): > > > > The ruling issued by the ICJ ordered six provisional measures including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza. Crucially, the Court also ordered Israel to preserve evidence of genocide and to submit a report to the Court, within one month, of all measures taken in line with its order. > > > > “Today’s decision is an authoritative reminder of the crucial role of international law in preventing genocide and protecting all victims of atrocity crimes. It sends a clear message that the world will not stand by in silence as Israel pursues a ruthless military campaign to decimate the population of the Gaza Strip and unleash death, horror and suffering against Palestinians on an unprecedented scale,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB Unlike you: the benchmark being used here is the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Specific acts are documented in great detail. There is no shortage of evidence, especially of what is normally the hardest thing to prove: _intent_. They literally just tweeted it out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2310 "2024-12-31T03:57:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And there’s your out So you have no smoking gun, then. Noted. BTW, you still haven’t said whether the Allies were war criminals who should’ve been prosecuted for all those atrocities they committed against civilians in Europe and Asia. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2311 "2024-12-31T04:03:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > BTW, you still haven’t said whether the Allies were war criminals who should’ve been prosecuted for all those atrocities they committed against civilians in Europe and Asia. Of course they should have. But now we’re going to have to deal with your stupid definitions of “atrocities they committed against civilians” and “actual deliberate mass murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2312 "2024-12-31T04:18:15Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Of course they should have. Well, I wasn’t expecting that. I applaud your logical consistency, which has been lacking from many in this thread. Was fighting and winning World War II still worth it, then? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2313 "2024-12-31T04:30:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Was fighting and winning World War II still worth it, then? To paraphrase . . . your apparent logic, _Atrocities occur in all wars, therefore all wars are atrocities_. Which is, on it’s face, ridiculous. The fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, for example, do not solely define the Allies actions in WWII. Maybe, someday, you’ll stop thinking that everything can be distilled down to simple blacks and whites. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2314 "2024-12-31T04:32:22Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > _Atrocities occur in all wars, therefore all wars are atrocities_. > Which is, on it’s face, ridiculous. Indeed! Now we’re getting somewhere. If all war is atrocity, then either all war is immoral or there must be circumstances where suffering atrocity to occur is permissable for bringing about a greater good. I hold that WWII, the Civil War, and the Israel-Hamas war are examples of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2315 "2024-12-31T11:07:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There are _reasons_ to be unabashedly pro Hezbollah, like wanting to see all Jews killed. There are _reasons_ to be pro Nazi, or pro Trump, or in favor of the recent New Zealand treaty amendment. > > Presumably, those aren’t the sorts of _reasons_ that Banquet Buddy referred to here. If they _were_, he wouldn’t follow it up with “resistance is uncomfortable”. What happened to “openly”? Now it sounds like you’re saying he vaguely implied support for those organizations. ISTM like your assertions about BB are based more on your feelings than his actual words. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2316 "2024-12-31T14:01:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What happened to “openly”? Now it sounds like you’re saying he vaguely implied support for those organizations. 🙄 Sure, I’m sure he meant that there are REASONS to support these terrorist groups, but they’re all BAD reasons and he didn’t actually mean that he _agrees_ with any of those reasons. That’s precisely how normal human beings talk. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2317 "2024-12-31T14:33:42Z")
Yes, actually that is how adults sometimes discuss complicated issues. There are reasons people support Trump, after all. I think of you take a step back, you might see that some of your posts here make you look like a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2318 "2024-12-31T14:41:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think of you take a step back, you might see that some of your posts here make you look like a jackass. There are reasons for that. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2319 "2024-12-31T15:25:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What happened to “openly”? Now it sounds like you’re saying he vaguely implied support for those organizations. To note: the “he” in the quote Babbel keeps referring to isn’t Banquet Bear, but a political commentator. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2320 "2024-12-31T15:30:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > I think of you take a step back, you might see that some of your posts here make you look like a jackass. > > There are reasons for that I’m _so sorry_ (I’m not) if you find it _uncomfortable_ that I have a problem with someone pontificating about how the Houthis and Hezbollah, two organizations that very explicitly want to see me dead, are examples of _resistance_. If I talked that way about the ACT treaty reform bill that’s such a sore spot for Banquet Bear, said that there were _reasons_ to support the reform, and that “justice” or “equality” or some other propaganda line that ACT puts out is “uncomfortable”, he would shit himself whining about how evil and racist I am. Well, I _don’t_ agree with ACT, but they are about 10,000 times more reasonable than either Hezbollah or the Houthis. Unless they changed their slogan since the last time I checked - is it now “Death to Aotearoa, A Curse Upon the Maori”? Because if so, that’d be pretty bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=115) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=117)