# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 121
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2401 "2025-01-17T18:26:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ground forces cause just as many or sometimes more casualties than airstrikes. Say _what_, now? Maybe IOF ground forces who snipe at grannies and babies do. That’s not the kind of ground force response that’s being preferred. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2402 "2025-01-17T18:27:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The Palestinians aren’t “sowing” anything by attacking Israel and trying to destroy it once a decade. > > Oh, they certainly are. > > Once again, happy to condemn Hamas militants and any other _actual_ Palestinian murderers all the live-long day. Interesting how you’re fine collectively blaming Israelis for the settlers but you get so specific in your blame when it comes to anyone else. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. That’s what you do after you’re caught stealing Who stole what from who now? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Iran has many, many legitimate military targets, in a way Gaza does not. Hamas is a legitimate target. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2403 "2025-01-17T18:31:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Interesting how you’re fine collectively blaming Israelis for the settlers I don’t, I blame the settlers and the (many, successive) Israeli government for the settlers. Whole lot of Israelis _protest_ the settlements, though - I certainly don’t blame them. > [@Babale](#): > > Who stole what from who now? Are the settlements built on land Israel newly created from vacuum, somehow? > [@Babale](#): > > Hamas is a legitimate target. The 5 yo kid living in the same building as the Hamas guy is not. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2404 "2025-01-17T18:34:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Who stole what from who now? > > Are the settlements built on land Israel newly created from vacuum, somehow? The settlements are built on land Israel took from Jordan after Jordan tried to wipe Israel out and got its ass kicked in 1967. If that’s “theft” to you, you can call it that, but I am certainly not gonna shed a tear for a theft ‘victim’ for land lost in an attempt to commit genocide. Practically, I think the settlements should be given up so Palestine can form as an independent country. But it’s hardly some moral imperative (to give up the land itself; Palestinian self determination is a moral imperative and hence the settlements need to be given up). Jordan lost that land in a war of aggression. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2405 "2025-01-17T18:36:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Hamas is a legitimate target. > > The 5 yo kid living in the same building as the Hamas guy is not. Unfortunately, Israel doesn’t have magical bombs that can kill the Hamasnik without hurting anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2406 "2025-01-17T18:43:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The settlements are built on land Israel took from Jordan …which Jordan took from Palestinians. Just because Israel stole from a thief doesn’t legitimize Israel holding on to it. > [@Babale](#): > > If that’s “theft” to you It’s theft to me and to the UN and the ICJ. > [@Babale](#): > > Unfortunately, Israel doesn’t have magical bombs that can kill the Hamasnik without hurting anyone else. Which is why its bombings are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2407 "2025-01-17T18:46:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course I never claimed that > [@Babale](#): > > Unfortunately, Israel doesn’t have magical bombs that can kill the Hamasnik without hurting anyone else. Snerk. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2408 "2025-01-17T18:52:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The settlements are built on land Israel took from Jordan > > …which Jordan took from Palestinians Say what? In 1947 the Palestinians decided to reject the partition plan. Instead they turned to Jordan, Egypt, and other countries and asked them to invade and evict the Jews. The plan was never to create an independent Palestine, though. If Israel was defeated in the War of Independence, the land would have just become part of Jordan, or even a larger Greater Syria under the king of Jordan. In what way was the land “stolen”? They willingly joined up with the invaders. > [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s theft to me and to the UN and the ICJ. 👍 > [@MrDibble](#): > > Which is why its bombings are wrong. Yes, you’ve established that the only course of action you’d consider proper is Israel bending over and taking it. Cool story bro. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2409 "2025-01-17T19:04:16Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Snerk How many times were you dropped on your head as a baby? I’m _still_ not claiming that Israel has no choice. Israel can choose to let Hamas freely shoot into Israel so long as they can find a kid to hide behind. That’s clearly the world you and MrDibble would prefer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2410 "2025-01-18T01:47:19Z")
So Israel makes the choice that, in the long term, creates more terrorists and puts Israel’s future more at risk. But at least Netanyahu and Trump’s political futures are looking brighter! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2411 "2025-01-18T01:51:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So Israel makes the choice that, in the long term, creates more terrorists and puts Israel’s future more at risk. No, letting Hamas attack Israel unopposed is what puts Israel at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2412 "2025-01-18T04:54:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s clearly the world you and MrDibble would prefer. There’s more evidence in this thread you have no problem with dead Palestinian children than that statement. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2413 "2025-01-18T07:29:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Say what? International law didn’t consider it a legal annexation. That’s theft. > [@Babale](#): > > The plan was never to create an independent Palestine, though Well, no, the plan was to divvy up various bits of Mandatory Palestine. But the Arab League definitely didn’t go along with Jordan’s action, either. It was Israel that let Jordan keep the WB in the Armstice, though. And not all Palestinians were happy with the situation - just ask Abdullah I… > [@Babale](#): > > In what way was the land “stolen”? They willingly joined up with the invaders. It wasn’t part of Jordan, then Jordan took it over, and then it was. Yes, many Palestinians went along with it, especially the leadership. But there were _always_ Palestinians in the WB who did not want to be Jordanian, and wanted an independent Palestine. They certainly thought it was stolen enough in 1951. > [@Babale](#): > > Yes, you’ve established that the only course of action you’d consider proper is Israel bending over and taking it. Nice strawman you’ve built there., Let’s see if it has any cites for its bullshit. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2025, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2414 "2025-01-19T11:13:54Z")
Once again, tactics not strategy. Israel has no chance of a peaceful and secure future if it’s only reactive and has no long term strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2415 "2025-01-22T01:32:52Z")
I think you are saying Israel has no chance of a peaceful and secure future unless it develops a long term strategy that does not involve bombing civilians (including children). You say that if Israel bombs civilians, there will be more terrorists; if there are more terrorists, Israel has no chance of a peaceful and secure future. I think **Babale** is saying Israel has no chance of a peaceful and secure future unless it does bomb civilians (including children). **Babale** says if existing terrorists are allowed to live, Israel has no chance of a peaceful and secure future; Israel can only attack existing terrorists by bombing civilians. I do not see where either of you actually contradict each other in this line of argument… The unwritten assumption is Israel has a chance of a peaceful and successful future in the first place, which I would reject… Personally, I could conceive of alternate strategies Israel might have taken regarding 10/7, settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, etc. But it goes without saying that Israel didn’t make those decisions, not due to a lack of imagination for long-term strategy, but because it didn’t and doesn’t have the requisite political will. The right in Israel has clear, long-term plans to rebuild Gaza as part of Israel, displacing the Palestinians to who-cares-where. But they’re only a plurality, ~40%. The international community won’t stand for that kind of blatant annexation, and even Netanyahu is against it. A smaller minority wants a two-state solution, and a very small margin of people want the Gazans to decide their own fate. This is including Arab-Israeli citizens - they don’t really have a seat at the table when it comes to setting policy. I blame Israeli leadership directly for their own tactical shortcomings, but Netanyahu doesn’t have the power to implement a peaceful long-term strategy for Palestine even if he wanted to. He barely has enough power to stay in office, and the fact that he is still Prime Minister is a testament to his tactical prowess. There is a reason Netanyahu’s government has been pandering to hardliners on Palestine, and there is a reason the government is more concerned about drafting Orthodox men than a ceasefire with Hamas. Given the politics of Israel, I take it as a _fait accompli_ that there is no chance of a peaceful and secure future. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2025, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2416 "2025-01-22T05:05:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Israel can only attack existing terrorists by bombing civilians. And that’s where he’s wrong. Both morally and militarily. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2417 "2025-01-22T18:46:29Z")
If everyone is as fatalist as you, nothing changes. I’m order to make change, people have to stand up and try, and if enough do so, eventually change might actually happen. Obviously this is much harder to do than say, but your type of fatalism means zero chance instead of a slim one. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2418 "2025-01-23T13:12:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > nothing changes Of course not. Netanyahu has achieved all of his goals: 1. Avoided any serious investigation of the IDF failure on Oct 7. 2. Cleared the way for colonizing (rebuilding) of northern Gaza 3. Strengthened his [political position](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/400708) ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2419 "2025-01-26T16:37:15Z")
Trump has weighed in on the conflict and has declared that Gaza should be “cleaned out” although his initial plan is for this to happen courtesy of Jordan and other neighboring countries absorbing the Palestinians: > **[Trump wants Jordan and Egypt to accept more Palestinian refugees and floats...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ends-bidens-hold-sending-005948133.html)** > > President Donald Trump said he would like to see Jordan, Egypt and other Arab nations increase the number of Palestinian refugees they are accepting from the Gaza Strip, potentially moving out enough of the population to “just clean out” the war-torn... He also resumed shipping 2000lb bombs to Israel. I wonder how many hostages each 2000lb bomb can rescue? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2420 "2025-01-26T17:30:37Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Trump has weighed in on the conflict and has declared that Gaza should be “cleaned out” I assume the Israeli government, being totally non-genocidal, have come out strongly against this idea. > Trump’s comments were welcomed by far-right politicians who back Jewish settlements in Gaza. > > The Israeli finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, described relocation of Palestinians as a “great idea”, and said he would work with the prime minister and cabinet to create an “operational plan for implementation” as soon as possible. [Oh well.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/26/trump-resumes-sending-2000-pound-bombs-to-israel-undoing-biden-pause) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=120) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=122)