# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 122
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2421 "2025-01-26T18:45:38Z")
Don’t worry, I’m sure the usual crowd of apologists will be along to explain how the Finance Minister has no actual influence over anything, and his opinions, which are not shared by any significant fraction of Israelis, do not in any way represent those of the Government he serves in, and how anyone who questions that is committing BlOoD lIbEl! ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2422 "2025-01-27T19:30:32Z")
I hesitate to jump into this thread for, well, obvious reasons. But I have a question that is meant in all earnestness. I have heard it argued that when Rabin was murdered the two state solution died with him, and that since that time there’s been no meaningful effort to revive it. This was in the context of Israel having some responsibility for letting the overall situation get as bad as it did. To what extent do you think this is a fair statement and why? I’m really just asking because I’ve never followed the situation so closely as to have a really good knowledge of what the policies and efforts were under the subsequent PMs and thus whether this is true. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2423 "2025-01-27T20:12:06Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I have heard it argued that when Rabin was murdered the two state solution died with him, and that since that time there’s been no meaningful effort to revive it. This was in the context of Israel having some responsibility for letting the overall situation get as bad as it did. > > To what extent do you think this is a fair statement and why? It’s not a fair statement at all. Israel offered a two state solution in 2000 under Barak and in 2008 under Olmert. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2424 "2025-01-29T23:31:31Z")
> [@What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/132): > > In reality, there isn’t a huge difference, because Israel was never remotely interested in genociding the Palestinians; but anyone who thinks that is something Israel wanted should be shitting themselves, given that Trump is pretty clearly supportive of the idea (and back in reality, more so than any but the most unhinged Israelis). Correct; Israel has certainly made some mistakes, but all in all the handling of the conflict is very much in line with prior wars against insurgents under simila… Interesting post from @Babale here that I want to respond to in this thread in case this is a bit off topic from that one, or gets contentions. Here you acknowledge that, were someone like Smotrich PM, Israel definitely could cross the line to genocidal behavior. That’s not surprising to me. But what I still don’t get is that, ISTM, Netanyahu lies somewhere between the perfect, ideal Israeli PM and Smotrich in terms of willingness to implement and excuse genocidal behavior (or ethnic cleansing or whatever). Presumably, you’d agree with that, correct? If so, then how are you so confident (apparently, at least AFAICT) that, as PM with regards to this war, Netanyahu is essentially acting as the _perfect, ideal Israeli PM_, rather than somewhere pretty far from that, on the spectrum between that perfect PM and Smotrich? Because ISTM that, quite obviously, Netanyahu is acting _much, much worse_ than the perfect Israeli PM with regards to this war, if not nearly as bad as Smotrich would. It’s just not feasible to me that Netanyahu stumbled his way into _perfectly both morally as well as tactically and strategically in terms of war leadership_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2425 "2025-01-29T23:59:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But what I still don’t get is that, ISTM, Netanyahu lies somewhere between the perfect, ideal Israeli PM and Smotrich in terms of willingness to implement and excuse genocidal behavior (or ethnic cleansing or whatever). Presumably, you’d agree with that, correct? If so, then how are you so confident (apparently, at least AFAICT) that, as PM with regards to this war, Netanyahu is essentially acting as the _perfect, ideal Israeli PM_, rather than somewhere pretty far from that, on the spectrum between that perfect PM and Smotrich? Because if Smotrich is a 1, your hypothetical perfect PM is a 10, and Netanyahu is a 5; it would take a 1.5 or a 2 to decide on ethnic cleansing. Netanyahu is no Rabin (maybe a 7.5 or an 8) but he’s also not remotely near the level of committing genocide. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2426 "2025-01-30T00:37:43Z")
Okay. But a 5 would have been screwing up a lot, if not necessarily genocidally, in terms of war management. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2427 "2025-01-30T01:01:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. But a 5 would have been screwing up a lot, if not necessarily genocidally, in terms of war management. Right?. Depends on why he’s a 5. Netanyahu’s flaws are things like his willingness to coalition build with anyone, and to drive Trumpian culture war wedges into the fabric of Israeli society; his immense corruption and ties to media magnates; and his disregard for democracy, as demonstrated by the judicial reform bill. So in these areas, he’s like a 2-3. In terms of being a wartime leader, he actually did decently well. Obviously he’s starting from a very low rating, given that Oct 7 happened on his watch and is in many ways his fault, and nothing he did since actually makes up for that epic fuckup. But he did lead Israel in absolutely demolishing Hezbollah and Hamas both. Then leadership structure of both groups is absolutely shattered, as is their infrastructure, and their supplies. The pager attack was an absolute master stroke, too (although of course, he doesn’t personally get much credit for that). Probably a 6 or so overall, but that’s mostly from being docked for allowing Oct 7 to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2428 "2025-01-30T01:04:08Z")
Also, I think you unintentionally misrepresented me here: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here you acknowledge that, were someone like Smotrich PM, Israel definitely could cross the line to genocidal behavior. I said: > [@What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/132): > > But if you _had_ the sort of Israel that had a Prime Minister Smotrich at its helm, My point is not that if Smotrich was PM tomorrow by the wave of a magic wand, that he would lead Israel into genocide. He would certainly _try to_, but he would never last in office, certainly not if he tried to genocide the Palestinians. I was talking about a hypothetical where Israeli society was full of enough Smotrich supporters to get someone like him elected Prime Minister. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2429 "2025-02-01T15:00:36Z")
More hostages are being released - and thank God for that - at the cost of hundreds of murderers sent back to Hamas, but what can you do… We are also learning more about how Hamas, and the UNRWA, chose to conduct themselves throughout this process. UNRWA personnel holding injured captives, untreated, at UNRWA facilities… Disgusting. > **[Emily Damari held in UNRWA facilities, denied medical care, she tells British PM](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skgg2v9ukx)** > > Emily told Keir Starmer she was held in UNRWA facilities for some time but was denied medical treatment, despite losing two fingers on her left hand and suffering an unhealed leg wound; 'Only aid she received was an expired bottle of medication' she... That’s not an aid organization, that’s the diplomatic wing of a terrorist organization. Good fucking grief. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2025, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2430 "2025-02-03T07:20:57Z")
How was she supposed to receive medical aid when the hospitals are rubble and the doctors are too busy [being raped to death in Israeli “care”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_al-Bursh). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2431 "2025-02-03T14:45:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How was she supposed to receive medical aid when the hospitals are rubble Well they had a whole week between when they murdered her family and kidnapped her into Gaza and when the invasion started to bandage the two bullet holes they put in her, but don’t let facts stop you from defending terrorists. Also, are we back to Gaza’s quantum hospitals? At all times throughout the war they are both utterly destroyed, and active but being bombed by Israel? Amazing technology, that. > [@MrDibble](#): > > and the doctors are too busy [being raped to death in Israeli “care”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_al-Bursh). Even your [biased source](https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative) doesn’t claim rape. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2025, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2432 "2025-02-03T14:49:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Also, are we back to Gaza’s quantum hospitals? At all times throughout the war they are both utterly destroyed, and active but being bombed by Israel? Amazing technology, that. What is your position on Gaza’s hospitals? Were they destroyed, were some destroyed, were none of them destroyed, etc.? And whatever happened to the hospitals, was it all completely necessary and justified? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2433 "2025-02-03T14:55:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is your position on Gaza’s hospitals? Were they destroyed, were some destroyed, were none of them destroyed, etc.? Most of them took damage during fighting with Hamas or aligned forces that were operating out of them. It’s hard to tell if any were “destroyed”; I’ve seen plenty of breathless declarations that hospitals were destroyed, only for them to be operating again a week later. That PIJ rocket that hit a parking lot and took out “500” people (in serious air quotes) was originally reported to have “destroyed” said hospital, for example. I haven’t seen any credible evidence of a hospital being “destroyed”; I’m not sure if they are all operational again yet. But the idea that no one in Gaza is able to get any medical care is obviously ridiculous. I also haven’t seen any credible evidence that the IDF engaged a hospital that didn’t have Hamas (or aligned groups) operating out of it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2434 "2025-02-03T15:16:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well they had a whole week between when they murdered her family and kidnapped her into Gaza and when the invasion started to bandage the two bullet holes they put in her Are you now saying they didn’t even bandage her? Huh, guess I imagined the bandages she had on as Hamas released her, then. > [@Babale](#): > > don’t let facts stop you from defending terrorists. You first… > [@Babale](#): > > Also, are we back to Gaza’s quantum hospitals? Are you saying they _weren’t_ partially demolished? What is this, if not rubble: [![](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/AA-20240401-34154270-34154267-ISRAELI_ARMY_WITHDRAWS_FROM_ALSHIFA_HOSPITAL_IN_GAZA-1711954991.jpg?resize=1170%2C780&quality=80) ](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/AA-20240401-34154270-34154267-ISRAELI_ARMY_WITHDRAWS_FROM_ALSHIFA_HOSPITAL_IN_GAZA-1711954991.jpg?resize=1170%2C780&quality=80) That some doctors are still working in the remains of some hospitals, or in tents, doesn’t mean “rubble” isn’t an accurate description of them. > [@Babale](#): > > Even your [biased source](https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative) doesn’t claim rape. Every non-Zionist source is biased to you, so that’s about as expected a comeback as can be. I’ll trust Albanese over you, sitting pretty in California, thanks. Of course, even if he _wasn’t_ raped, “merely” tortured to death and dumped to die without his pants on, you’d _still_ be here defending the IOF terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2435 "2025-02-06T23:07:13Z")
Well, Trump is now publicly calling for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. I, for one, find that pretty terrifying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2025, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2436 "2025-02-07T01:27:39Z")
> **[Israel backs Trump plan and orders military to prepare for Palestinians to...](https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/06/middleeast/netanyahu-endorses-trump-gaza-plan-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has backed US President Donald Trump’s proposal to “take over” Gaza, as Israel’s army was ordered to prepare plans for large numbers of Palestinians to leave the territory. If Netenyahu actually plays along with Trump’s insane ramblings and dreams of forging a colonial empire then I take back EVERYTHING I have said in support of Israel in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2025, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2437 "2025-02-07T01:37:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If Netenyahu actually plays along with Trump’s insane ramblings > On Thursday, Defense Minister Israel Katz directed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to prepare a plan “to enable the voluntary departure of Gaza residents,” according to a Defense Ministry statement. What more do you need exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2438 "2025-02-07T01:42:33Z")
The point where it stops being voluntary, because I doubt many Gazans are going to choose to leave their home, war-ravaged though it may be. Netenyahu is a bastard, but he’s not stupid. SURELY he knows that what Trump is talking about is insane and unworkable. If he actually tries it and the Israeli people don’t immediately run him out of office then I’m afraid they’re a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2025, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2439 "2025-02-07T07:13:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Alright. I give. If this is what it looks like, then Israel has gone too far. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Netenyahu actually plays along with Trump’s insane ramblings and dreams of forging a colonial empire then I take back EVERYTHING I have said in support of Israel in this thread. Maybe _this_ time you’ll mean it, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2440 "2025-02-07T13:49:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Netenyahu is a bastard, but he’s not stupid. SURELY he knows that what Trump is talking about is insane and unworkable. If he actually tries it and the Israeli people don’t immediately run him out of office then I’m afraid they’re a lost cause. [Sources in the IDF mostly think that Trump is completely full of shit and that nothing like this is possible.](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rjw9sqfyjx?utm_source=ynet.co.il&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=copy_url) Because, very obviously, that’s the case; this isn’t a serious idea by Trump. There are basically two camps in the military. One camp thinks it’s a completely idiotic and unworkable idea, period. The other camp thinks that _if_ you have people a way out of Gaza and into Western countries and offered them incentives, you _might_ get a few tens of thousands of up to a hundred thousand people to take you up on that offer (for context, they bring up that 30,000 people, mostly wealthy upper class Gazans with connections in other countries, migrated out under their own means); but now that Trump has raised the idea in the context of a population transfer, even that smaller number of people would never go for it. The most likely outcome of all this is that Trump fucks up the ceasefire before the process is fully resolved. Less likely but maybe what Trump is going for is scaring countries in the region into helping with a post war process, for example telling Egypt “if you don’t want to re-home the Palestinians, fine, help govern Gaza instead”. Sort of like what he did with Canada and Mexico, but this would be a much tougher concession to draw out. And again, fairly likely to backfire if it doesn’t work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=123)