# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2501 "2025-04-07T05:49:05Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > it is used both as a pejorative for white people Just a nitpick - I have never, ever encountered Boer used to refer to English White South Africans (outside of any involvement in agriculture, the Apartheid state or the police). You would never refer to a group of English White South Africans in the city as “Boere” pejoratively. When it’s used for White South Africans generally, it will be to refer to Afrikaners. Or literal farmers. I’m not saying _you_ haven’t mistakenly been called that. I’m saying it’s not the usage _I_ know. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2502 "2025-04-07T14:14:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > That sounds like a one state solution. Not what I’m looking for. > > No, you want two states only if _one_ of them is a beach resort built on a mass grave. Just like [Nahsholim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahsholim). Yeah, I get it, I’m an evil bloodthirsty Jew, I just have to kill some Palestinian kids for my matzoh. Passover is coming up, after all. Cool story, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2503 "2025-04-07T14:17:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Right. As I explained in that “woke” thread Babale no doubt already read. Wow, it’s almost like you’re a real thinking person capable of nuance! I bet you could easily explain why it’s problematic when fanatics talk about Judea and Samaria, too. No problem whatsoever with river to the sea, though; no bad implications there whatsoever. [![](https://i.imgflip.com/9q0kzd.jpg) ](https://i.imgflip.com/9q0kzd.jpg) Here’s my take: revanchism is bad on either side, because it makes a two state solution impossible. Likewise, insisting that everyone on either of the two sides is only interested in death and destruction leads to revanchism and a rejection of any actual path forward. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2504 "2025-04-07T14:57:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > > That sounds like a one state solution. Not what I’m looking for. > > > > No, you want two states only if _one_ of them is a beach resort built on a mass grave. Just like [Nahsholim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahsholim). > > Yeah, I get it, I’m an evil bloodthirsty Jew, I just have to kill some Palestinian kids for my matzoh. Passover is coming up, after all. Cool story, bro. Holy fucking shit, that is _not_ what he said. He was speaking about you, and about Israel. Not about Jews. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2505 "2025-04-07T14:58:58Z")
Yeah, no shit. This kind of bullshit greatly weakens the fight against real antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2506 "2025-04-07T14:59:47Z")
I am _sooooo_ pissed at the people who want to equate any criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2507 "2025-04-07T15:00:29Z")
Oh, go fuck yourselves. If a Palestinian person said they were for a two state solution, and people kept responding to them “yeah, but only if one of those two states is full of dead people! OMEGALOL!!!”, I’m sure that absolutely no one would accuse that person of being islamophobic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2508 "2025-04-07T15:13:16Z")
It’s not your support for a two state solution that i object to. I am also in favor of a two state solution. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2509 "2025-04-07T15:20:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s not your support for a two state solution that i object to. I am also in favor of a two state solution You’ll note that when I said that I’m in favor of a two state solution, you responded “me too”, rather than screeching about how actually I don’t want a two state solution, I want to kill all the Palestinians. You know - because you aren’t a raging idiot like MrDribble. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2510 "2025-04-07T15:33:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yeah, I get it, I’m an evil bloodthirsty Jew “Buh…buh…antisemitism!” is not the trump card you think it is when you’re so obviously backing the army (not even a whole country, and especially not an ethnicity) of killers. While I may have said “Israel” one time too many, _generally_ I try and say “IOF” or “Zionists” in these discussions, because that’s who’s doing the killing. I never say “Jews” and don’t intend to even say “Israelis” because I’m well aware there are plenty of them horrified by the genocide and by people like you. > [@Babale](#): > > I just have to kill some Palestinian kids for my matzoh. I think we’ve already seen your’e _way_ too personally cowardly to do anything of the sort, Cali boy. If you weren’t, you’d have served already. > [@Babale](#): > > Wow, it’s almost like you’re a real thinking person capable of nuance! Wow, it’s almost like you’re a troll trying to needle someone with lies. > [@Babale](#): > > everyone on either of the two sides is only interested in death and destruction Something no-one has said. I _know_ there are good Israelis, just like I know there are innocent Palestinians. None of them wear an IOF uniform, live in a settlement or fight for Hamas, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2511 "2025-04-07T15:57:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > While I may have said “Israel” one time too many, _generally_ I try and say “IOF” or “Zionists” in these discussions Zionism is the belief in Jewish self determination which, no surprise, you’re of course opposed to. Of course, you probably have an alternate definition, one crafted by the colonizers we defended our liberation from. The same pan Arab nationalists who were perfectly happy to gobble up Gaza and the West Bank into their budding empires, and whose interest in Palestine was purely expansionist. Real smooth of you to adopt it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > None of them wear an IOF uniform, Oh, so you only hate the _vast majority_ of Jewish Israelis, plus those Druze race traitors. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2512 "2025-04-07T22:44:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Zionism is the belief in Jewish self determination Zionism is the belief in a colonial enterprise in Palestine. Founding Zionists admitted as much. > [@Babale](#): > > one crafted by the colonizers we defended our liberation from Who, Ze’ev Jabotinsky? > [@Babale](#): > > Oh, so you only hate the _vast majority_ of Jewish Israelis Funny you can’t tell the present tense. _Breaking the Silence_ certainly aren’t on my shitlist, and they’re _all_ IOF veterans. Unlike you. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2513 "2025-04-07T23:37:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Something no-one has said. I _know_ there are good Israelis, just like I know there are innocent Palestinians. None of them wear an IOF uniform, live in a settlement or fight for Hamas, though. That pretty much sums up my feelings on this as well, but far more succinctly than myself. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2514 "2025-04-08T13:06:43Z")
Doesn’t Israel have a pretty universal draft? I assume there are some who currently serve in the IDF who oppose the Gaza action. We had plenty of soldiers who got shipped to Vietnam who didn’t want to be there. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2515 "2025-04-08T13:16:21Z")
Israel has a draft (as well as draft-dodgers), and there are absolutely [Combatants for Peace](https://www.cfpeace.org/) and similar organizations. Not all Israelis or Palestininans are cool with war, genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and I would (naively and hopefully) expect those who have been, for whatever reason, involved on the front lines of such a conflict to be doubly against it. War is only cool in Hollywood movies. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I assume there are some who currently serve in the IDF who oppose the Gaza action. We had plenty of soldiers who got shipped to Vietnam who didn’t want to be there. Hmm… can you “oppose” an action while simultaneously participating in it? You can speak up later, and I suppose during, though that seems like a quick trip to the stockade. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2516 "2025-04-08T16:34:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Doesn’t Israel have a pretty universal draft? Not if you were Haredi in _yeshiva_, until fairly recently. But otherwise, yes, for Jewish Israelis and the men of a couple other ethnicities, at least. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I assume there are some who currently serve in the IDF who oppose the Gaza action. Then they should not comply. There were [White South Africans who refused their universal draft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Conscription_Campaign#), back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2517 "2025-04-08T16:49:29Z")
Fair enough. I worked with a guy who opposed the killing Israel was doing many years ago (which was much more justifiable than what they are doing now) and his reaction was to work as a medic in the army, rather than participate in that killing. I have no idea what he would have done in today’s circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2518 "2025-04-08T19:49:22Z")
I have tremendous respect for young people who accept the considerable personal risk associated with defying conscription laws, but I’m not ready to declare that _only_ those who do so could be described as “good people”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2519 "2025-04-08T21:31:27Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’m not ready to declare that _only_ those who do so could be described as “good people”. It’s a big leap, I know, but I _am_ ready to say that those who _remain_ in an army currently committing genocide are not _good_ people. Many of them may just be cowards afraid to speak up - getting along to get along, as they say - and I’m not going to call them _evil_ for that. But not _good_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2520 "2025-04-08T21:36:08Z")
> **[March 2025 Rafah humanitarian convoy massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2025_Rafah_humanitarian_convoy_massacre)** > > October 7 Hamas-led attack on IsraelMilitary engagements > Civilian attacks I think the Wikipedia article is a good collection of news stories and reports about this incident, and I presume it will be updated as more information comes out. AFAICT this is the most credibly and comprehensively reported-on single war crime incident of this conflict since the initial Oct 7th attacks - can anyone think of another? And AFAICT it’s the one that has most clearly caught Israeli and IDF leadership flat footed as far as explanation/rationalization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=127)