# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2521 "2025-04-08T22:14:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AFAICT this is the most credibly and comprehensively reported-on single war crime incident of this conflict since the initial Oct 7th attacks - can anyone think of another? The Al-Hali ~~Hospital~~ Parking Lot ~~bombing~~ rocket misfire. > **[Gaza: Findings on October 17 al-Ahli Hospital Explosion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion)** > > The explosion that killed and injured many civilians at al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on October 17, 2023, resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups, that hit the hospital grounds,... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2522 "2025-04-14T13:14:40Z")
Following up on the investigation (if there actually is one). Pasting from the Wikipedia article: > IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir ordered an internal investigation into the incident by the unit responsible for handling suspected war crimes. To date, dozens of incidents have been referred to this unit, but no reprimands or punishments have been issued against IDF soldiers. > According to the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din, the system established by the IDF’s general staff to investigate potential war crimes is primarily designed to shield the military from accountability while maintaining the appearance of due process. An analysis of Israeli military campaigns over the past decade revealed that at least 664 complaints were submitted for review, yet more than 80% were closed without even launching a criminal investigation. The organization concluded that the military’s law enforcement system seldom pursues charges against low-ranking soldiers and almost entirely avoids investigating senior commanders. Is there any reason to believe this investigation will be any different? Thoughts, @Babale? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2523 "2025-04-14T13:23:28Z")
I think I asked this back on April 6th: “How is his record when it comes to investigations of this sort, involving possible malfeasance by IMF troops?” ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2524 "2025-04-21T00:13:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is there any reason to believe this investigation will be any different? Turns out it was just a comedy of errors: > **[‘Professional failures’ led to killing of Palestinian medics in Gaza, says...](https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/20/middleeast/israeli-military-professional-failures-gaza-medics-intl/index.html)** > > The Israeli military says “professional failures” led to the killing of 15 paramedics and first responders in an incident in Gaza in March, according to an investigation released Sunday. Oh, I’m sorry, “operational misunderstanding.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2525 "2025-04-21T00:36:08Z")
Kill a bunch of unarmed medics, bury the evidence (including the vehicles!), and then lie about it, and you might just face a slap on the wrist! Bravo, IDF! We haven’t seen this kind of accountability since the first few months of the second Trump administration! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2526 "2025-04-21T14:56:56Z")
Well, I guess we can all stop griping about this execution-style murder of multiple unarmed medical personnel. Israel has responded with the strongest possible tools at its disposal; one person has actually _lost his job_ over this, and a second has been officially censured! (of course, the Justice Minister feels these punishments are gravely excessive, so they may be reduced at some point). Once again, the IDF displays how it is the most ethical army in the world. Truly, Zionism is a shining moral beacon unto the nations. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2527 "2025-04-21T17:24:18Z")
Somewhat of an aside: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Truly, Zionism is a shining moral beacon unto the nations. The belief that it’s OK for Israel to exist? Serious question here. I’ve read a lot of discourse about this term, what it “should” mean, and how to tell if it’s being used in an antisemitic way. (Not saying the quote does this at all, but it certainly highlights that plenty of people don’t define it as “the belief in Israel’s right to exist as a nation,” which I’ve seen great insistence that it does and should. Either way, it certainly seems that different definitions are muddying waters at least somewhat.) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2528 "2025-04-21T17:33:36Z")
I usually try to avoid using the word for precisely that reason, but I was particularly infuriated by this latest development. For the purpose of that post, you can define it as the belief that “Israel’s right to exist as a nation is absolute, the right of its government to do whatever it wants can never be questioned by anyone, and nobody else has any rights worth respecting at all”. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2529 "2025-04-21T19:04:01Z")
But words matter, definitions matter, and that’s not what the word means regardless of how angry you are. If you tell me the US should withhold aid until the perpetrators of this murder are jailed and the IDF takes tangible steps to reduce collateral killing of innocent bystanders, we’re on the same side of the issue. If you tell me you oppose Israel’s right to exist at all, we’re on irreconcilably opposite sides. I see plenty of comments online from “sincere” anti-Zionists who genuinely support the dismantlement of Israel. Not knowing which kind of anti-Zionist is posting just muddies the waters. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2530 "2025-04-21T19:13:18Z")
Well, yes, that’s exactly why I usually try not to use that label. I don’t identify as either Zionist or anti-Zionist. I don’t believe countries are entities that can have rights, but I strongly support the rights of actual humans to live in peace and dignity. As a practical matter, I don’t see how the rights of Jewish Israelis can realistically be protected in the foreseeable future without some sort of State of Israel. OTOH, Israel keeps having democratic elections and freely choosing the most horrible people available to govern it, and I’m not prepared to defend their right to keep doing that forever. ---
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2531 "2025-04-22T10:50:14Z")
Do the Palestinians also have the right to exist as a nation? Israel and its supporters seem quite insistant that they don’t (at least not unless its on Israel’s terms). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2532 "2025-04-22T11:22:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The belief that it’s OK for Israel to exist? I believe it’s OK for Israel to exist, and I’m as anti-Zionist as they come. Of course, what I mean by Israel existing, and what Zionists mean, might not be the same thing. It’s definitions all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2533 "2025-04-22T11:26:39Z")
FWIW, Zionism has always meant to me that, due to centuries of historical persecution, Jews deserve and require their own country, in order to have a permanent safe place for Jews that won’t be subject to the whims of bigotry and the like. It certainly doesn’t require domination or brutalization of Gazans and Palestinians, and in fact doing so makes Israel less safe in the long run, so IMO it is contrary to Zionism. But obviously many have different definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2534 "2025-04-22T11:30:00Z")
“between the Sea and the Jordan River there shall only be Israeli sovereignty” Menachem Begin, 1977, as quoted by _Steinberg, Gerald M.; Rubinovitz, Ziv (2019). Menachem Begin and the Israel-Egypt Peace Process Between Ideology and Political Realism . Indiana University Press_ I know - of course - that was almost 50 years ago, that Begin died in '92, that he was instrumental to the Camp David Accord, as well as the last leader of Irgun and founder of Likud. A complex person certainly. Why I bring this up, "From the river to the sea, " as has been chanted på Palestinians and their supporters, I can’t help but think that for some Israelis there were - and probably is - a dream of _Eretz Yisrael_, i.e. equalling the fictional kingdom of David and Salomon. Whether these people think that Palestinians have a place there is better answered by wiser people than me. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2535 "2025-04-22T12:16:37Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The belief that it’s OK for Israel to exist? It seems to me that I see that word used to mean so many different things it doesn’t really mean anything. Admittedly, they’re all some flavor of Israel’s sort of manifest destiny, but I see it used proudly and as a pejorative. I see it used by the Christian nutters to mean something else entirely. Hell, sometimes I’m not even sure if I’m allowed to use it at all, as a non-Jew. (by allowed of course I mean it’s acceptable in polite conversation) ---
**Author:** ![mplo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mplo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mplo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2025, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2536 "2025-05-02T13:19:17Z")
> The Israelis can and will exterminate the entire Palestinian population, with nobody stopping them. I don’ t think the Israelis could do that, even if they wanted to. They’re in deep doo-doo with the International community as it is, and they’d be in even deeper doo-doo if they did exterminate the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2537 "2025-05-02T17:09:00Z")
> [@mplo](#): > > I don’ t think the Israelis could do that, even if they wanted to. They’re in deep doo-doo with the International community as it is, and they’d be in even deeper doo-doo if they did exterminate the Palestinians. They don’t care. They’ll kill all the Palestinians, and then pick some new target. ---
**Author:** ![mplo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mplo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mplo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2538 "2025-05-06T18:25:04Z")
I have to disagree with you, Der\_Trihs. The Israelis cannot go that far, because that would result in their complete and total destruction. ---
**Author:** ![mplo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mplo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mplo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2539 "2025-05-06T18:27:05Z")
You’ve made some excellent points, P91noX, on which I totally agree with you, P91noX. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2540 "2025-05-07T01:24:01Z")
> [@mplo](#): > > I have to disagree with you, Der\_Trihs. The Israelis cannot go that far, because that would result in their complete and total destruction. They have nuclear weapons; which means they can go as far as they like as long as they don’t attack another nuclear power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=128)