# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/241 "2024-03-06T16:40:19Z")
> [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3837): > > [https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/04/europe/un-team-sexual-abuse-oct-7-hostages-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/04/europe/un-team-sexual-abuse-oct-7-hostages-intl/index.html) I’m sure someone will be by shortly with an explanation of how this isn’t that bad / isn’t what it looks like / was probably all made up by those nefarious Israelis anyway. That was two days ago that you predicted that someone would come along to dismiss or excuse the allegations of horrific sexual violence made against Hamas. Nobody dismissed the claims. Nobody excused the violence. **You are fundamentally wrong about the perspective of those who oppose IDF’s actions in this war**. I hope you can reflect on this incident, and how you don’t understand the objections to your positions. I hope you use the occasion to listen better to what folks are telling you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/242 "2024-03-06T16:58:54Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > On the other hand, in my opinion she’s being deployed to try and whitewash the US’s support and enablement (military, economic and political) of Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians, which is ongoing. I don’t know whether your opinion or mine is more cynical, but my guess was that it’s a trial balloon: if the reaction to what the vice-president says is super positive, then — having never said otherwise — the president can then advocate for that same position, amplifying the Administration’s position with one voice; but, if the reaction is super negative, then the president can — possibly while addressing that he understands why, and respects that, she’s taken that position — explain that he’d reached a _different_ conclusion, which he’ll now passionately lay out a case for. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/243 "2024-03-07T16:46:22Z")
That totally makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/244 "2024-03-25T07:29:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m giving up. I’m surprised it took this long for your arm to get sore from waving that bloody shirt all the time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/245 "2024-03-25T09:02:55Z")
Whereas your genocide cheerleading will continue unabated, no doubt… Good old _predictable_ **Smapti** , never met a jackboot he wouldn’t lick. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/246 "2024-03-25T14:12:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m surprised it took this long for your arm to get sore from waving that bloody shirt all the time. What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you happy with what **Banquet\_Bear** describes going on in Gaza currently? You used to be a fucking loon about police, and I was impressed that in the last couple years you seemed to reconsider some of your stances and not just believe things blindly. But then this happened and you’re back to being a psychopath. I hope you can rediscover some humanity in yourself, because I don’t see it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/247 "2024-03-25T14:24:55Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Are you happy with what **Banquet\_Bear** describes going on in Gaza currently? Judging by his posts in Gaza threads, I’m sure he’s quite ecstatic. Orgasmic, even. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/248 "2024-03-25T14:44:35Z")
Ironically, the [“waving the bloody shirt”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waving_the_bloody_shirt) rhetoric is perhaps more apt here than Smapti intended. > [@](#): > > […] a fictitious incident of April 1871 in which U.S. Representative and former Union general Benjamin Butler of Massachusetts, while making a speech on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, supposedly held up a shirt stained with the blood of a Reconstruction Era who had been whipped by the Ku Klux Klan. Although Butler did give a speech condemning the Klan that month, he never waved anyone’s bloody shirt. White Southerners mocked Butler, using the fiction of his having “waved the bloody shirt”, to dismiss widespread Klan thuggery and other atrocities, including murder, committed against freed slaves and Republicans. So, “waving the bloody shirt” became a Reconstruction-era propaganda slogan strategically applied by former Confederates and their supporters to discredit and minimize criticisms of indefensible atrocities. And, evidently, is still very useful for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/249 "2024-03-25T22:48:22Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Are you happy with what **Banquet\_Bear** describes going on in Gaza currently? I’m happy that the war will likely be over sooner than later, I’m happy that he won’t be parroting Hamas propaganda constantly anymore, and I’m happy that he seems to have realized that the other Arab states don’t give a rat’s ass about the Palestinians and would rather use them as unwitting martyrs to foment Judenhass than actually protect them or open up their countries to them. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/250 "2024-03-25T22:50:45Z")
Yeah, that’s not what I asked if you were happy about. My assessment stands - fucking psychotic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/251 "2024-03-25T23:28:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m happy that the war will likely be over sooner than later, I’m happy that he won’t be parroting Hamas propaganda constantly anymore, and I’m happy that he seems to have realized that the other Arab states don’t give a rat’s ass about the Palestinians and would rather use them as unwitting martyrs to foment Judenhass than actually protect them or open up their countries to them. But he’s pretty bummed out that there will still be some Palestinians left drawing breath when the smoke clears. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/252 "2024-03-25T23:51:13Z")
The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere and Israel isn’t trying to make them. These propagandistic hyperbolics about “genocide” have poisoned the discourse and made it impossible to have a serious conversation about how the war is being prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/253 "2024-03-25T23:53:53Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Yeah, that’s not what I asked if you were happy about. To the extent that any of the Hamas propaganda he spouts is actually happening, I’m not happy that people are suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/254 "2024-03-26T01:43:46Z")
I guess it isn’t genocide if you plug your ears and say la la la enough. Bebe should go on trial. The US should quit giving them money. It took me a while to come to this stance, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/255 "2024-03-26T01:47:20Z")
The term _genocide_ seems to be as misunderstood as the term _concentration camp_. Not all concentration camps were death camps and not all genocidal actions are standing people up and killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/256 "2024-03-26T01:51:30Z")
I agree. I was just hoping that as they had been victims of genocide themselves, that Israel would avoid victimizing someone else. Naive of me, but that’s hope for you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/257 "2024-03-26T02:10:14Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > Bebe should go on trial. Agreed. > [@Sylvanz](#): > > The US should quit giving them money Would you prefer that Russia or China were backing them instead? Because that’s what would happen if the US abandoned its greatest ally in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/258 "2024-03-26T04:33:03Z")
I would rather that the US was not a party to genocide. Does it really matter how/where they get the weapons to commit indiscriminate slaughter of innocents? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/259 "2024-03-26T04:53:57Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > I would rather that the US was not a party to genocide. Good thing that’s not happening, then. > [@Sylvanz](#): > > Does it really matter how/where they get the weapons The US has the power to moderate Israel. If it seeks alliances with Russia or China, those powers will encourage fascists like Netenyahu and make an actual genocide more likely. Moreover, it’s in America’s interests to prop up liberal democracies that respect civil rights and freedom of religion (which Israel is) against authoritarian regimes that do not (like all of its neighbors with the possible exception of Lebanon). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/260 "2024-03-26T05:19:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere and Israel isn’t trying to make them. Well, there’s that claim, and then there’s what [actual Israeli leaders are actually doing and saying.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/) > [@](#): > > Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords […] > > “While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.” […] > > More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now[live in the West Bank](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/02/jewish-settlers-west-bank-half-million/?itid=lk_inline_manual_17). Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. There is just no rational way to defend wishful-thinking assertions that Israel’s not “trying to make” Palestinians “go anywhere”, or that Israeli policies “respect civil rights” of Palestinians. The reality is different. > [@Smapti](#): > > The US has the power to moderate Israel. Yes, by not giving them money, as Sylvanz suggested. Attempts by the US to use other forms of “moderating power” in recent decades have been pretty dismal failures. Israel has continued to take over more and more Palestinian territory, to kill more and more Palestinian civilians, and to embrace more and more openly expansionist rejection of a Palestinian state, and more and more repression of Palestinian rights in civil society. Pretending that this is all just normal behavior for a well-intentioned “liberal democracy”, and that everything Israel’s doing to Palestinians is just a reasonable and ethical self-defense response to terrorist threats, simply isn’t working any more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=14)