# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 130
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2581 "2025-05-23T11:51:02Z")
That’s a bullshit excuse. It’s clear you don’t actually deplore all violence. Your excuses for this violence are no more credible or legitimate than the IDF’s excuses for atrocities against Gazan civilians. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2582 "2025-05-23T11:54:45Z")
“Those so called Gazan civilians were sheltering Hamas”. Bullshit. “Those so called Israeli civilians were working for a criminal regime”. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2583 "2025-05-23T12:01:41Z")
My initial impression was that the victims were targeted specifically for being embassy employees, and my reaction was based on that. The regime has caused so much international ill will over the last few years, all I’m saying is it isn’t surprising when anger boils over. So it seems I was mistaken and the killer struck without knowing who his victims were. It isn’t OK to target somebody just for being Jewish. I deplore that. When I react that it isn’t surprising that somebody would attack the Israeli government, that isn’t the same as approving of assassinations. I never approve of murder the way these apologists for the criminal regime approve of killing civilian journalists, doctors, diplomats, humanitarian workers, children. Starving children. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2584 "2025-05-23T12:04:00Z")
Okay. But it would be the same for embassy civilian employees. Just as, say, a Gazan nurse is still a civilian even if they happen to be treating a wounded member of Hamas. Civilians don’t become legitimate targets (or ‘less deplorable’ targets) because their jobs are in government buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2585 "2025-05-23T12:08:10Z")
I’m not saying that they’re legitimate targets just for being employees. I’m against violence. I’m not excusing their murder the way apologists for Israel keep excusing the murder of children. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2586 "2025-05-23T12:11:54Z")
But you’re coming close to that. There are plenty of entirely peaceful Gazan civilians who technically get their paycheck or other livelihood from Hamas or a Hamas-led organization. That doesn’t change their status as civilians at all, and it doesn’t make atrocities against them any less unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2587 "2025-05-23T12:15:48Z")
_All_ atrocities against civilians are unacceptable. That’s the whole _point._ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2588 "2025-05-23T12:18:22Z")
I agree. Your chickens thing implied that some are less deplorable than others, and I’m saying that’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2589 "2025-05-23T12:20:47Z")
I didn’t mean to imply that. I meant to imply that the Israeli government has earned itself so much international ill will that it isn’t surprising. To say “it isn’t surprising” is not to excuse it but to acknowledge how it got this way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2590 "2025-05-23T12:21:50Z")
I recommend against that. It implies that some such atrocities are not quite so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2591 "2025-05-23T12:25:41Z")
Again, I didn’t mean to imply that, and frankly that is you reading something into it that wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2592 "2025-05-23T12:29:33Z")
I don’t buy that. You’d react just as I did if someone said “That Gazan nurse being killed was just chickens coming home to roost from the Hamas attacks”. And rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2593 "2025-05-23T12:29:35Z")
All right, I’ll concede that I shouldn’t have said that and it was inappropriate for the occasion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2594 "2025-05-23T12:30:13Z")
Hallelujah! A mind was changed on the internet! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2595 "2025-05-23T15:00:50Z")
The phrase “chickens coming home to roost” is intrinsically kind of prone to being intended in the sense “normalizing violent injustice in some situations creates a culture where violent injustice readily spreads to other situations”, but heard in the sense “what goes around comes around, those who live by the sword die by the sword, they had it coming to them, etc.” Even Malcolm X himself [had to address that discrepancy](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3dtfjb/on_jfks_assassination_malcolm_x_said_he_never/) in the interpretation of his original remark about Kennedy’s assassination. > [@](#): > > **Malcolm X:** Well I said the same thing that everybody said. That uh, his assassination was the result of the climate of hate, only I said, that the chickens came home to roost, which means the same thing. A climate of hate means that this is the result of something. And when I said chickens coming home to roost, I said the same thing. **Interviewer:** You did not say that you were glad that the President was killed? **Malcolm X:** No, that’s what the press said. What would I look like saying I’m glad the President was killed? [And also:](https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/a-summing-up-louis-lomax-interviews-malcolm-x/) > [@](#): > > LOMAX: Is that the reasoning behind your remark after the assassination of President Kennedy? You are reported to have said that Kennedy’s death was an instance of “chickens coming home to roost.” > > MALCOLM X: Yes, but let’s clear up what I said, I did not say that Kennedy’s death was a reason for rejoicing. That is not what I meant at all. Rather I meant that the death of Kennedy was the result of a long line of violent acts, the culmination of hate and suspicion and doubt in this country. You see, Lomax, this country has allowed white people to kill and brutalize those they don’t like. The assassination of Kennedy is a result of that way of life and thinking. The chickens came home to roost; that’s all there is to it. America–at the death of the President–just reaped what it had been sowing. Yeah, “chickens coming home to roost” is pretty much never a suitable response to any specific assassination and/or terror attack, though I agree that the underlying intended general concept of the inevitable spreading of a climate of hate is a valid idea that has its uses. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2596 "2025-05-24T15:59:22Z")
FWIW, I often point out that 9/11 was chickens coming home to roost for the US meddling in Afghanistan, enabling religious warriors, and then just walking away, leaving the place awash in weapons and ideology once the Soviets were out. In no way does that mean I support, condone, excuse, or like what happened on 9/11. But I find many Americans don’t want to hear that we bear some degree of responsibility for the event, and some have accused me of supporting, condoning, excusing, or liking the events of 9/11 Just weighing in on the “chickens coming home to roost” and whether it’s necessarily supporting violence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2597 "2025-06-27T11:50:56Z")
IDF soldiers tell Haaretz they were ordered to shoot unarmed civilians waiting for aid. > **[IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-27/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-deliberately-at-unarmed-gazans-waiting-for-humanitarian-aid/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe33780000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native)** > > \*\*\* What more is it gonna take for the IDF defenders to see that something is majorly wrong here? How many dead Gazan children will it take? It’s truly appalling. Years from now, the IDF defenders with any sort of conscience or decency will look back with incredible shame at what they advocated for, rationalized, and defended at this time. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2598 "2025-06-27T12:19:45Z")
And IDF soldiers are upset enough about it to go to the press. That’s in many way an astonishing headline. It’s both incredibly sad and also admits a sliver of hope. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2599 "2025-06-27T15:33:29Z")
Pretty obvious this “aid” scheme is just another coverup for genocide. Giving the IDF _every possible benefit of the doubt,_ they’re apparently just not competent enough to organize food distribution in a territory they’ve occupied for well over a year without having to shoot dozens of people on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2600 "2025-06-27T15:44:56Z")
[And here’s a good article from the Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jun/27/israel-gaza-propaganda) that should (but certainly won’t) shut up anyone who still denies that literal genocide is what the Israeli right wing want. It’s a list of statements that have been made in public by politicians and pundits, who have faced no punishment for making them, in a country which has laws on the books criminalizing hate speech and incitement to violence. Here are a few typical examples of the stuff you can hear on Israeli TV these days: > “We are coming. We are coming. We are coming to Gaza. We are coming to Lebanon. We will come to Iran. We will come to every place […] We will annihilate the enemy. We will return the Middle East to a situation where Arabs are terrified of Jews […] we will come to annihilate you [emphasizes]. To a-n-n-i-h-i-l-a- t-e. Annihilate. Pass this on, share this video so all your friends can see what we are about to do to you,” > Gaza deserves death. The 2.6 million terrorists in Gaza deserve death! … Men, women, and children – in every way possible, we must simply carry out a Holocaust on them – yes, read that again – H-O-L-O-C-A-U-S-T! For me, gas chambers. Train cars. And other cruel forms of death for these Nazis. Without fear, without hesitation – simply crush, eradicate, slaughter, flatten, dismantle, smash, shatter …. Gaza deserves death. Let there be a Holocaust in Gaza, > The Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death Certain Posters will likely try to handwave this away by saying that most of the genocide advocates aren’t currently high ranking government officials. I wonder what their rationalization for the government’s refusal to enforce their own laws will be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=129) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=131)