# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Jrogyrogy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b782af/32.png) [@Jrogyrogy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jrogyrogy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2841 "2026-08-03T01:01:40Z")
You don’t remember me but I remember you from SCP. Have no words to describe how disgusted and disturbed I am to find what one of my favourite writers is up to in 2026. Never meet your heroes as they say. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2842 "2026-08-03T01:36:30Z")
I’m sorry you feel that way. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2843 "2026-08-03T02:41:28Z")
Hello @Jrogyrogy and welcome to the Straight Dope. Sorry that your introduction takes place under such disheartening circumstances, but if it’s any consolation, you are far from the only one around here who’s disgusted with @Smapti’s bullshit apologetics for war crimes and genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2844 "2026-08-03T02:49:28Z")
How can I be an apologist for things that aren’t even happening? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2845 "2026-08-03T02:55:27Z")
Denial is one of the tools of apologism. _”That didn’t happen, and if it didn’t happen it wasn’t that bad, and if it was that bad they deserved it”,_ etc. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2846 "2026-08-03T02:59:38Z")
“I’m sorry you feel that way.” Apologizing on behalf of others. How classy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2847 "2026-08-03T03:13:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > _”That didn’t happen, and if it didn’t happen it wasn’t that bad, and if it was that bad they deserved it”,_ etc. If genocide was being committed by Israel, that _would_ be bad. Israel is not committing genocide. That is campist propaganda created by the Russians to try to fracture the US-Israel alliance, cause a schism in the American left, and ultimately get Donald Trump reelected (at which it was successful). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2848 "2026-08-03T03:26:02Z")
Gee, how clever of those dastardly conspiracy theorists to somehow hoodwink such experienced and knowledgeable international observers as the UN independent commission, Amnesty International, and the Lemkin Institute into producing detailed and verified evidence-supported explanations for their assessments that Israel is committing genocidal acts against Palestinians, when it’s all just made-up Russian propaganda! 🙄 Idiots like to think that they’ve outsmarted the “sheeple” who accept documented consensus views from widely recognized authorities, because they’ve landed on some farfetched contrarian alternative version that _changes everything!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Jrogyrogy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b782af/32.png) [@Jrogyrogy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jrogyrogy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2849 "2026-08-03T03:29:09Z")
Thank you for the kind words. Frankly I’m surprised he hasn’t been banned, but I don’t know how the rules work here re. genocide denial. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2850 "2026-08-03T03:29:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Gee, how clever of those dastardly conspiracy theorists to somehow hoodwink such experienced and knowledgeable international observers > **[How Russia uses the Israel-Gaza Crisis in its disinformation campaign against...](https://icct.nl/publication/how-russia-uses-israel-gaza-crisis-its-disinformation-campaign-against-west)** > > On 29 October a large crowd took over the Makhachkala Airport in the Republic of Dagestan, a region with a diminishing minority Jewish population of about 300 - 400 families. > **[Russia is trying to exploit America's divisions over the war in Gaza](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russia-trying-exploit-americas-divisions-war-gaza-rcna149759)** > > The effort includes artificial intelligence, fake social media accounts and a spike in state-sponsored Russian propaganda. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Amnesty International The same Amnesty International that just kowtowed to JK Rowling’s anti-trans pogrom? > [@Kimstu](#): > > that Israel is committing genocidal acts against Palestinians, If Israel wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, the war would have lasted about a month. They certainly have the ability to do so. What we’ve seen over the last three years is the result of them _holding back_ and _not_ engaging in total war or eradication. It took three years and two months from when the German government decided on “the final solution” to murder two-thirds of Europe’s Jews. The Gaza “genocide” has been going on for almost as long and the total death count - which INCLUDES military targets - is about 3% of the pre-war population. Some genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2851 "2026-08-03T04:14:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The same Amnesty International that just kowtowed to JK Rowling’s anti-trans pogrom? > > Kimstu: …I think Amnesty International’s decision not to stand with the writers of the report and to kowtow to JK Rowling is an absolute disgrace. Because there was nothing wrong with the report. Just like there is nothing wrong with this. > **[Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territory: ‘You Feel Like You Are Subhuman’:...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/8668/2024/en/)** > > This report documents Israel’s actions during its offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip from 7 October 2023. It examines the killing of civilians, damage to and destruction of civilian infrastructure, forcible displacement, the obstruction or denial... If in the future Amnesty International _also_ kowtows to the likes of you on this report, I’d feel exactly the same way. There is nothing wrong with the report. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Israel wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, the war would have lasted about a month. You and others say this over and over again. But it isn’t true. Because genocide isn’t defined this way. As you have been told over and over and over and over again its defined like this: > [@](#): > > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > > (a) Killing members of the group; > > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide) _Intent_ is a key part of the definition. As is _in whole or in part_. > [@Smapti](#): > > What we’ve seen over the last three years is the result of them _holding back_ And this is complete and utter bullshit. This didn’t happen because Isreal held back. > **[There are more child amputees in Gaza than anywhere else in the world. What...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/mar/27/gaza-palestine-children-injuries)** > > Tens of thousands of children have been wounded in Gaza. Even those evacuated for treatment face an impossible path > [@](#): > > In Gaza, the extraordinary incidence of amputations is explained not only by the traumatic force injuries caused by relentless Israeli bombardment, but burns and resulting infections as well. Many amputations should not have been necessary. > > Dr Feroze Sidhwa, speaking from Gaza, said that he saw many children lose limbs that could have been saved under other circumstances. He cited the destructiveness of the weapons, the high rates of infection given the sanitary conditions at hospitals, the scarcity of necessary medical equipment, and malnutrition as leading contributors to amputation. > > “It’s very difficult to heal a wound when you have no protein intake for a week, let alone for 15 months,” he said > > Dr Thaer Ahmad, another doctor who operated in Gaza, explained that treating burns requires a lot of resources that were often unavailable. In ordinary circumstances, he said, a physician may be willing to tolerate an infection that results from a burn, since infections can typically be treated. Help for these children is _right next door_. Imagine living right next door to this absolute misery and not doing anything to help. > [@Smapti](#): > > The Gaza “genocide” has been going on for almost as long and the total death count - which INCLUDES military targets - is about 3% of the pre-war population. Some genocide. What a pathetic thing to say. Imagine thinking 3% of the population is an _insignificant amount_. Imagine being the guy who thinks Palestinian lives have so little value. And for the record, the number of confirmed dead from bombings and shootings is 73,500. That doesn’t include the hundreds, possibly thousands, that are still buried under the rubble. So it’s closer to 3.5/4% now. And it also doesn’t include those who died in other ways. Because they couldn’t get treated for cancer because Isreal blew up the cancer hospital. Those who died when Isreal implemented a total siege on food. So it’s a bigger percentage than that. But we won’t know the real number for years. The first step has to be letting war crimes investigators into the strip. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2852 "2026-08-03T04:54:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > _Intent_ is a key part of the definition. And Israel has no genocidal intent. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This didn’t happen because Isreal held back. Israel holding back is the reason they’re amputees and not, you know, _dead_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What a pathetic thing to say. Imagine thinking 3% of the population is an _insignificant amount_. Germany lost 10% of its population in WWII and nobody claims the Allies committed genocide against the Germans. 23% of military-age male southerners died in the Civil War and nobody claims the Confederates were the victims of genocide. Russia lost 13% of its population in WWII. So yes, 3% _is_ relatively insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2853 "2026-08-03T05:05:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And Israel has no genocidal intent. …many in Isreali leadership have openly expressed genocidal intent. Its a matter of public record. > [@Smapti](#): > > Israel holding back is the reason they’re amputees and not, you know, _dead_. There are 20,000 dead children that suggests otherwise. Over a thousand babies under the age of one. Over 400 of them were born then killed during the “war.” There are 2700 bloodlines that have been eliminated. Exterminated. Every single member of those families killed. > [@Smapti](#): > > Germany lost 10% of its population in WWII and nobody claims the Allies committed genocide against the Germans. 23% of military-age male southerners died in the Civil War and nobody claims the Confederates were the victims of genocide. Russia lost 13% of its population in WWII. The Genocide Convention was drafted post-1946. You’ve listed things that were prior to the convention. No shit, Sherlock; these historical events weren’t called genocide before the term was broadly introduced into international law. > [@Smapti](#): > > So yes, 3% _is_ relatively insignificant. But we don’t use percentages to determine if something is or isn’t a genocide. You know that, right? So this percentage isn’t relevant at all here. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2854 "2026-08-03T05:10:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > many in Isreali leadership have openly expressed genocidal intent. “Many” meaning “two” in this case. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There are 20,000 dead children that suggests otherwise. Over a thousand babies under the age of one. Over 400 of them were born then killed during the “war.” > > There are 2700 bloodlines that have been eliminated. Exterminated. Every single member of those families killed. OK, now do those numbers for WWII Germany. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Genocide Convention was drafted post-1946. You’ve listed things that were prior to the convention. No shit, Sherlock; these historical events weren’t called genocide before the term was broadly introduced into international law. Are you willing to call them genocide now, with the benefit of himdsight? Or did genocide only become wrong when your precious international courts made a rule about it? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But we don’t use percentages to determine if something is or isn’t a genocide. You know that, right? It disproves genocidal intent. If Israel wanted the Gazans eradicated that number would be a LOT higher. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2855 "2026-08-03T05:21:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Many” meaning “two” in this case. > > Banquet\_Bear: …more than two. And historically intent has always been one of the hardest things to prove. In this case though, the simply tweeted it out. See page 59, Section D titled “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others” > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB Those were expressions made in 2023. There have been no shortage of expressions _since_ then. > [@Smapti](#): > > OK, now do those numbers for WWII Germany. Fuck off. I’m not your monkey. > [@Smapti](#): > > Are you willing to call them genocide now, with the benefit of himdsight? Or did genocide only become wrong when your precious international courts made a rule about it? The key words here are “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, **a national, ethnical, racial or religious group**.” Bolding mine. Genocide doesn’t mean “kill a lot of people.” It means “we intend to destroy, in whole or in part, this group of people because they share an ethnicity, a race, or a part of a religious group.” So the allies didn’t intend to destroy Germans just because they were Germans. Nobody killed the confederates because they were white. These wouldn’t be regarded as genocide under the convention. > [@Smapti](#): > > It disproves genocidal intent. No it doesn’t. Its a number, and numbers in isolation don’t mean jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2856 "2026-08-03T05:24:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Bolding mine. Genocide doesn’t mean “kill a lot of people.” It means “we intend to destroy, in whole or in part, this group of people because they share an ethnicity, a race, or a part of a religious group.” And since Israel has no intent to do that to the Gazans, it’s not a genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And historically intent has always been one of the hardest things to prove. In this case though, the simply tweeted it out. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So the allies didn’t intend to destroy Germans just because they were Germans. I’m sure I could find plenty of Allied politicians and generals who made comments about “killing the Huns” or how “the only good German is a dead German”. But I’m not your monkey. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Genocide doesn’t mean “kill a lot of people.” Then stop listing off numbers and figures as if they prove anything, since by your own admission they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2857 "2026-08-03T05:31:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And since Israel has no intent to do that to the Gazans, it’s not a genocide. …the expressed genocidal intent is all a matter of public record. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2858 "2026-08-03T06:03:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the expressed genocidal intent is all a matter of public record. Tweets from a couple of government officials and legislators do not equal official government policy any more than Greg Bovino tweeting about “100 million deportations” proves the US intends to commit genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2859 "2026-08-03T06:26:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Tweets from a couple of government officials and legislators do not equal official government policy …tweets are evidence. And it was more than a couple of officials. And this is important: people committing genocide don’t always create official government policy that says things like “we are committing a genocide.” > [@Smapti](#): > > any more than Greg Bovino tweeting about “100 million deportations” proves the US intends to commit genocide. It certainly IS strong evidence that Bovino is committed to ethnic cleansing, and if he ever saw the inside of an international court, those tweets would be front and centre. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=142)