# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/281 "2024-03-26T07:41:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The evidence indicates that Hamas invaded Israel Sure. > [@Smapti](#): > > unprovoked Ha ha. > [@Smapti](#): > > and deliberately murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, including babies. I’d hate to think they _accidentally_ murdered them. The evidence _also_ “indicates” that Israelis are (sometimes gleefully) committing warcrimes using that attack as an excuse. Way, way, _way_ out of proportion to the initial Hamas attack. And the evidence (actual Israeli census evidence) also says that the “decapitated babies” story you keep repeating is a lie. You lie. You’re a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/282 "2024-03-26T07:41:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As I think we may have discussed previously, journalist Max Blumenthal has [noted some problems with taking those gorily sensationalist claims at face value.](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/06/scandal-israeli-october-7-fabrications/) Your source for that is currently running front page articles that claim Jeffrey Epstein was murdered, that the US government is planning to kill Julian Assange, that the CIA killed Kennedy, and that 10/7 was a false flag committed by the IDF, and appears to have a strong pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine and anti-NATO editorial bent - and is incidentally run by a Uyghur genocide denier and RT contributor. I’m not taking tankies at their word either. > **[The Grayzone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone)** > > The Grayzone is an American fringe, far-left news website and blog, founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal. The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project, was affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018. > It is known for its critical coverage of American foreign policy, misleading reporting, and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes. The Grayzone has downplayed or denied the Chinese government's human rights abuses against Uyghurs, pu... > [@](#): > > Amid the Syrian civil war, the website supported the government of Bashar al-Assad in Syria,[26] published content denying that the Syrian government used chemical weapons against civilians,[28][41][42][43] and accused the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) of a “cover-up”.[44] The website also downplayed the scope of China’s Xinjiang internment camps and other widely reported abuses by the Chinese government against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities.[3][4][20][21][28] Blumenthal stated in July 2020 that, “I don’t have reason to doubt that there’s something going in Xinjiang, that there could even be repression. But we haven’t seen the evidence for these massive claims”. > > The English Wikipedia formally deprecated the use of The Grayzone as a source for facts in its articles in March 2020, citing issues with the website’s factual reliability. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/283 "2024-03-26T08:01:55Z")
But generalized (and not unreasonable) distrust of the Grayzone’s ideology isn’t the same as refutation of their specific criticisms of the “decapitated babies” claims. Nowhere have I seen any reliable documentation of such claims, and apparently [neither did PolitiFact.](https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/) > [@](#): > > [Yossi] Landau’s accounts to news outlets about the attack’s aftermath have varied, and it’s unclear from these interviews where Landau saw mutilated bodies. […] > > ABC News [reported](https://abcnews.go.com/International/horror-israeli-authorities-show-footage-hamas-atrocities-reporters-notebook/story?id=104015431) that the footage its reporters viewed did not show beheaded babies. […] > > On Oct. 11, a spokesperson for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu [told CNN](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23/h_a63b0fd57f2df717147ea8e26a2f758c) that babies and toddlers were found in Kfar Aza with their “heads decapitated.” The next morning, CNN [cited](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl) an unnamed Israeli official who told the network that the Israeli government could not confirm the claim. […] > > The White House later [told CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl) that Biden had neither seen photos nor received confirmation that Hamas beheaded babies or children. The lack of credibility of Landau and Zaka is supported by mainstream Israeli news organizations [such as Haaretz.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/death-and-donations-did-the-volunteer-group-handling-the-october-7-dead-exploit-its-role/0000018d-5a73-d997-adff-df7bdb670000) > [@](#): > > The Zaka volunteer group began collecting bodies in the devastated communities of southern Israel immediately after the Hamas attack, while the IDF sidelined soldiers trained to retrieve remains. An investigation reveals cases of negligence, misinformation and a fundraising campaign that used the dead as props Like I said, there are plenty of attested Hamas terror acts with details supported by reliable evidence. Clinging to the most extreme and horrific unconfirmed allegations for their shock value just looks like propaganda rather than rational analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/284 "2024-03-26T08:05:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Like I said, there are plenty of attested Hamas terror acts with details supported by reliable evidence. Clinging to the most extreme and horrific unconfirmed allegations for their shock value just looks like propaganda rather than rational analysis. Very well, let’s concede for the sake of argument that no babies were decapitated. I have open in another tab a photograph of the charred remains of an Israeli baby who is believed to have been burned alive. Does that make it any better? I don’t think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/285 "2024-03-26T08:12:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > who is believed to have been burned alive Which is an absolutely horrible thing to happen, no question. But nothing about that statement indicates what that belief is based on, who is making the claim, or, if the belief is correct, whether the burning was deliberately inflicted or the result of a differently targeted attack. If the burning was caused by an attack directed elsewhere, either on the part of Hamas attackers or by “friendly fire” shelling on the part of Israeli defenders, that doesn’t seem significantly different on the “atrocity meter” from all the Palestinian civilian deaths that you seem quite reconciled to. When Palestinian babies in Gaza are burned alive by Israeli bomb blasts, you just call it “collateral damage” and, apparently, could not care less. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/286 "2024-03-26T08:19:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > When Palestinian babies in Gaza are burned alive by Israeli bomb blasts, you just call it “collateral damage” and, apparently, could not care less. I mourn the victims of Pearl Harbor more than I mourn the victims of Hiroshima, too. There’s a big difference between collateral damage that happens while pursuing the end of a defensive war, and the deliberate and unprovoked killing of innocents intended to trigger a jihad. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/287 "2024-03-26T08:29:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I mourn the victims of Pearl Harbor more than I mourn the victims of Hiroshima, too. I don’t think it’s supposed to be a competition. One can make a case that an attacker’s death is less regrettable than that of an innocent victim, or that a soldier’s death is more acceptable than that of a civilian, sure. But to divvy up one’s compassion for dead infants depending on which of their “sides” is promoting the more personally palatable propaganda about “who started it” just seems kind of disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/288 "2024-03-26T14:49:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And judging from the Israeli public’s mood, I don’t expect Smotrich to stay in power much longer than his master will once new elections are held. I’m getting really sick of people trying to handwave away the mass slaughter of civilians by saying the people responsible for it will be punished at the next elections, which could be _several years away._ Cold comfort for the dead and their survivors. And going on and on about how Israel is a liberal, multiracial democracy, given that its current government has passed legislation explicitly defining Israel as a _Jewish_ State, and when the war started was in the process of gutting the judiciary to grant itself absolute power, is also wearing a bit thin. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/289 "2024-03-26T14:56:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > False dichotomy. But we must embrace false dichotomies, because the only alternative is cannibalism!! – xkcd ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/290 "2024-03-26T16:23:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet you ask me to take this theocratic death cult at its word when it claims it isn’t using hospitals and schools as bases, that the tunnels they’ve been keeping women and children prisoner in don’t exist, that the child soldiers they’re arming and sending into battle are just innocent civilians, that they haven’t been stealing food and medicine meant for civilians who are starving because of their jihad, and that those headless babies must have decapitated themselves. And yet you are asking us to take another theocratic death cult at its word for all kinds of crap going on in Gaza. Why should anyone believe a single word coming out of the Israeli government at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/291 "2024-03-26T19:01:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m saying that collateral damage is unavoidable Oh, well that’s alright then. No, wait it’s not alright. It’s an excuse to slaughter and starve thousands. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/292 "2024-03-26T19:06:03Z")
I can’t even. Just shrugging off the deaths of anyone no matter what culture or country they belong to is just ugly. Especially, children, who are not even aware of the petty territorial/religious/and political posturing that lead to their pain and death. Disgusting. Oops, not aimed at you Kimstu. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/293 "2024-03-26T21:03:20Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And going on and on about how Israel is a liberal, multiracial democracy, given that its current government has passed legislation explicitly defining Israel as a _Jewish_ State Of course it’s a Jewish state. Why shouldn’t it be? We’ve seen what happens when Jews don’t have a state of their own. That doesn’t mean Jews are the only people with rights. There are even Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > and when the war started was in the process of gutting the judiciary to grant itself absolute power, Which the Supreme Court overturned. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > And yet you are asking us to take another theocratic death cult at its word What on earth are you talking about? I don’t know of any Jews who want me dead for not converting. > [@Sylvanz](#): > > Just shrugging off the deaths of anyone no matter what culture or country they belong to is just ugly. Shouldn’t you be writing a letter to the UN demanding justice for an Eritrean boy who fell down a well or something? ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/294 "2024-03-26T21:12:30Z")
No, I should be posting to you to see if you actually consider Palestinians human beings or just, “collateral damage” that don’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/295 "2024-03-26T21:14:33Z")
Both. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/296 "2024-03-26T21:27:11Z")
You can’t be both. Either they are humans who deserve protection. Or they are just things in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/297 "2024-03-26T21:36:39Z")
I can’t possibly shed a tear for everyone who dies anywhere. Noone can. You’d lose your mind. Even Superman can’t possibly save everyone. We all have internal hierarchies of who matters to us. Why should I invest my limited supply of emotional capital on people who would want me dead if they knew I existed? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/298 "2024-03-26T21:54:38Z")
Just to reassure certain posters, if there is a ceasefire, the following, which I believe some are envisioning, will NOT happen. 1. Ceasefire happens 2. Hamas breaks ceasefire and attacks Israel 3. Everyone tells Israel not to do anything, because that would be _genocide_ 4. Israel sits around powerless while Hamas bombs and rockets cities into ash ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/299 "2024-03-26T21:55:33Z")
Steps 1 through 3 already happened. Step 4 won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/300 "2024-03-26T21:57:33Z")
So you think the rest of the world _wants_ Israel to passively let themselves be bombed out of existence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=16)