# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/21 "2023-11-06T03:08:15Z")
> Some discrepancy. Gazan Health Ministry says 10,000 Gazan civilians have been killed, but senior Israeli security source says 20,000 people have been killed, “most of them terrorists”. [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-NQ9TqWMAAe4tj?format=jpg&name=900x900) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-NQ9TqWMAAe4tj?format=jpg&name=900x900) > **[גורם ביטחוני בכיר: 20 אלף נהרגו מתקיפות צה"ל בעזה, רובם מחבלים](https://www-ynet-co-il.translate.goog/news/article/r1tobe47t?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)** > > בעוד שבעזה טוענים לכ-10 אלף הרוגים, הגורם הסביר שבכל אחת ממתקפות צה"ל על מנהרות הטרור נהרגים כ-100 איש, כך שעם מאות התקיפות מתחילת המלחמה ייתכן שמספר ההרוגים אף גדול יותר מ-20 אלף: "הלחץ על חמאס גובר. הם יציעו עסקה לשחרור החטופים רק כשירגישו את החרב... > ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/22 "2023-11-06T05:31:10Z")
Most dangerous conflict for journalists, as well as for UN workers: > > > ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/23 "2023-11-06T05:55:41Z")
Maybe UNRWA shouldn’t tolerate Hamas setting up shop in their refugee camps. I doubt any other UN Agency would, but the UNRWA isn’t like any other humanitarian relief agency, is it? In fact, it helps pereptuate the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/24 "2023-11-06T08:45:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Law enforcement actions with the intent of “suppressing an insurrection” of an occupied territory Whose territory is being occupied? If Gaza is part of Israel, then it’s not an occupation any more than the US government is occupying Texas by way of stationing troops at Fort Hood. If it’s not part of Israel, then this is a war, not an insurrection, and infrastructure are valid military targets under the laws of war you’re so fond of. Sounds to me like AI wants to have it both ways - Gaza is an “occupied territory” that Israel has no claim over and that needs to be granted its independence, but the Gazan people are also somehow Israeli nationals who are entitled to freedom of movement and equal treatment as citizens. It’s Schrodinger’s State. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/25 "2023-11-06T09:43:45Z")
This conflict has raged for generations, despite all attempts to get the combatants to the peace table, they cannot, will not, make it work. Both sides have behaved hideously towards the other. Repeatedly. Over decades. Nothing the rest of the world can do will make peace rain down on them. And over generations they have been unable to find any way to lasting peace. And now they are exporting this conflict around the world. Everyone must choose sides. Multicultural countries find themselves being divided over an imported conflict. I don’t want Palestinians screaming defiance in the streets of my country. Or Jewish people demanding retribution as if Israel has done no wrong. I want to see huge demonstrations DEMANDING the combatants come to a peace conference. And then act in good faith/abide or lose all overseas transfer of funds, including aid and personal funds, into their nations. From ANY source. Until they come to the table. I am beyond pissed that this unending conflict will now tear the whole world apart. I want to see nations, including my own, refuse to pick a side regardless of historical positions previously held. Both sides seem convinced the world will willingly line up behind them and join the fight. I wish nations could unite and demand they start making peace proposals, or ALL support, financial, military, even news coverage, will be withheld until they do. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/26 "2023-11-06T15:27:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > “I got banned from the thread, please come and talk to me in this other thread.” I suppose that makes sense. Good luck. My thoughts exactly. I’m going to pass. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/27 "2023-11-06T15:32:07Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > This conflict has raged for generations, despite all attempts to get the combatants to the peace table, they cannot, will not, make it work. > > Both sides have behaved hideously towards the other. Repeatedly. Over decades. > > Nothing the rest of the world can do will make peace rain down on them. And over generations they have been unable to find any way to lasting peace. I’m with you but I think the problem is “realpolitiks.” There are states that absolutely do not want to see peace happen there and work diligently to make sure it never happens. Russia and Iran leap to mind but I think Egypt and Saudi Arabia and Syria and Turkey and Jordan (to name a few, not an exhaustive list) absolutely oppose peace between Israel and its neighbors. And, sadly, it is all too easy for any of them to stir the pot and rile-up various factions that see to it peace never happens. I have a vague memory of an almost peace that happened (Camp David Accords?..I forget). Shortly after that happened some terrorist attacks occurred and it all fell apart on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/28 "2023-11-06T15:49:00Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I wish nations could unite and demand they start making peace proposals, or ALL support, financial, military, even news coverage, will be withheld until they do. The problem is that virtually no one is really interested or invested in some kind of multi-lateral peace. The United States and most European nations (Turkey aside) have pretty much backed Israel, with the US providing arms and materiel regardless of substantive accusations of human rights violations and war crimes, while the one thing that most of the Islamic world (which despite Western perception is not one big homogenous group marching in lockstep) can all agree on is backing the Palestinians even when Hamas and Hezbollah engage in overt terrorism and suicide bombing. Even though this is the very definition of a civil conflict within the Palestinian mandate (and essentially fomented into the modern context by the “Green Line” armistice which satisfied exactly no one), essentially all of the Western and Arab world has become invested in this conflict vastly out of proportion with its effect on their security and commercial interests, while both Russia and China enjoy occasionally stirring the pot just to fuck with geopolitics, and in the Soviet Era used Syria as a testing ground for in-action anti-air missile testing while the US used Israel to test anti-radiation and air defense systems. Today, every major power calling for peace is insisting that it be on their terms, and with radicalized leadership on both sides nobody is willing to sit down at a table and discuss how to equitably split up a pack of gum, much less how to divvy up and share the historical territory of Palestine. Just getting the respective parties to mention each other’s names without spitting would be a major diplomatic coup. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/29 "2023-11-06T16:22:07Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Just getting the respective parties to mention each other’s names without spitting would be a major diplomatic coup. I haven’t seen Hagari spit any of the times he said that Israel’s war is with Hamas, not the Palestinian people. This narrative is pretty ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/30 "2023-11-06T17:01:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > My thoughts exactly. I’m going to pass. Quelle surprise. Not so yappy anymore, are you? You’re clearly experiencing a lucid episode, so good on you. I hope it lasts. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/31 "2023-11-06T17:43:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But, while Obama is eloquent, what he is saying is not particularly new. He is not the first person to notice this. Peace in the Middle-East has been a problem many US presidents have grappled with and none were particularly successful. Israel has been in this position for 70 years. It’s not new. The emotions one feels have a tendency to force people to emphasize one fact or another, which makes people who understand the nuance of it sound like they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/32 "2023-11-06T18:01:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m with you but I think the problem is “realpolitiks.” There are states that absolutely do not want to see peace happen there and work diligently to make sure it never happens. I would add the the leadership of Hamas and the Likud party to that list. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/33 "2023-11-06T19:59:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Maybe UNRWA shouldn’t tolerate Hamas setting up shop in their refugee camps. I doubt any other UN Agency would, but the UNRWA isn’t like any other humanitarian relief agency, is it? In fact, it helps pereptuate the conflict. I think you have a misunderstanding of the [authority and responsibilities](https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees) of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA): > [@](#): > > The responsibility of UNRWA in Palestine refugee camps is limited to providing services and administering its installations. The Agency does not own, administer or police the camps, as this is the responsibility of the host authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/34 "2023-11-06T20:46:01Z")
That’s a very convenient excuse that lets them turn a blind eye to Hamas operating out of their hospitals and “refugee camps”. But I’m not surprised you approve of their work. Since you’re such a big fan of naked Wikipedia links: > **[UNRWA | Criticism and controversies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA#Criticism_and_controversies)** > > In 2004, Emanuel Marx and Nitza Nachmias pointed out that many criticisms of the agency corresponded to its age, "including symptoms of inflexibility, resistance to adjust to the changing political environment, and refusal to phase out and transfer its responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority". > > In 2007, UNRWA initiated a reform program to improve efficiency. However, an internal ethics report leaked to Al Jazeera in 2019 alleged that, since 2015, the agency's senior management have consoli... ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/35 "2023-11-06T20:56:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This narrative is pretty ridiculous. It’s not nearly as disingenuous as dismissing any criticism of Israeli policy and action, however based in evidence and fact, as “ridiculous” or anti-Semitic. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/36 "2023-11-06T20:59:17Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It’s not nearly as disingenuous as dismissing any criticism of Israeli policy and action, however based in evidence and fact, as “ridiculous” or anti-Semitic. As I’ve said dozens of times, there’s plenty of factual things Israel does wrong you can criticize them for. I’veeven criticized Israel myself dozens of times (and I’ve never met a single Israeli who isn’ta harsh critic of Israel, one way or the other). “Apartheid” or “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is not on that list, though, and I’m not going to take you seriously if that’s where you go. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/37 "2023-11-06T21:10:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “Apartheid” or “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is not on that list, though, and I’m not going to take you seriously if that’s where you go. So, for your next trick you’re going to show where I’ve used these terms in reference to Israel and Palestine, right? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/38 "2023-11-06T21:30:32Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > So, for your next trick you’re going to show where I’ve used these terms in reference to Israel and Palestine, right? Only if you show me where I dismissed _any_ criticism of Israel, however based in evidence and fact, as ridiculous or anti-Semitic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/39 "2023-11-06T21:32:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > “I got banned from the thread, please come and talk to me in this other thread.” I suppose that makes sense. Good luck. Well, speaking as the mod responsible for keeping the peace over in the MPSIMS thread, I am delighted to see this thread has been created. And I expect it will generate some solid discussion, along with a certain degree of name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/40 "2023-11-06T21:43:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s a very convenient excuse that lets them turn a blind eye to Hamas operating out of their hospitals and “refugee camps”. But I’m not surprised you approve of their work. Carnegie Endowment for International Peace: “In the Gaza Strip, UNRWA is irreplaceable as it offers lifesaving services for the besieged refugee population”. Why would you even suggest that you’re not surprised that I approve of their work? Out of interest, do you approve or disapprove of the principle of “lifesaving services for the besieged refugee population”? > [@Babale](#): > > Since you’re such a big fan of naked Wikipedia links: > > [UNRWA - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA#Criticism_and_controversies) Could you expand on what you mean by this? I have occasionally posted links to Wikipedia articles, such as the ‘[Israeli war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes)’ article, but that was to demonstrate that people have accused Israel/the IDF of war crimes. The whole article was the body of evidence. You have posted a section of a Wikipedia article for me to read, which I have read. Sure, the UNRWA is not a perfect organisation, but what is it specifically that you are objecting to and directing my attention to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=3)