# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/441 "2024-05-20T19:38:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My point is to call attention to the sour and blood-soaked irony of their nearly identical responses: both of them squarely lay the blame for the bloodshed on their enemies, and fail to take responsibility for the blood on their own hands. One of them started this war by kidnapping hundreds of civilians into enemy territory, and could end the war at any moment they choose by releasing those hostages. So I think the blame _does_ lay squarely on one side here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/442 "2024-05-20T19:41:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > One of them started this war by kidnapping hundreds of civilians into enemy territory, and could end the war at any moment they choose by releasing those hostages. Would that stop the war, though? I thought the Israeli government’s goal was the complete elimination of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/443 "2024-05-20T19:45:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At the beginning of this war, I was absolutely convinced that Israel’s military and government held moral superiority over the murderous Hamas terrorists. I no longer believe that to be true, and welcome prosecution of leaders on both sides for their crimes against humanity. What is especially concerning to me is the prospect, described in detail in [this recent New York Times Magazine article “The Unpunished”,](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) of the ongoing rightward shift in Israeli views enabling continued radicalization of, and impunity for, anti-Palestinian extremists. > [@](#): > > […] This system, with its gaps and obstructions, allowed the founders of groups advocating extreme violence during the 1970s and 1980s to act without consequences, and today it has built a protective cocoon around their ideological descendants. > > Some of these people now run Israel. In 2022, just 18 months after losing the prime ministership, Benjamin Netanyahu regained power by forming an alliance with ultraright leaders of both the Religious Zionism Party and the Jewish Power party. It was an act of political desperation on Netanyahu’s part, and it ushered into power some truly radical figures, people — like Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir — who had spent decades [pledging to wrest the West Bank and Gaza from Arab hands](https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/11/03/israel-netanyahu-far-right-itamar-ben-gvir-lead-vpx.cnn). […] > > The I.D.F. refused to allow [Hebron massacre terrorist Baruch] Goldstein to be buried in the Jewish cemetery in Hebron. He was buried instead in the Kiryat Arba settlement, in a park named for Meir Kahane, and his gravesite has become an enduring place of pilgrimage for Jews who wanted to celebrate, as his epitaph reads, the “saint” who died for Israel with “clean hands and a pure heart.” > > One ultranationalist settler who went regularly to Goldstein’s grave was a teenage radical named Itamar Ben-Gvir, who would sometimes gather other followers there on Purim to celebrate the slain killer. […] > > In October of [1995], Ben-Gvir spoke to Israeli television cameras holding up a Cadillac hood ornament, which he boasted he had broken off the prime minister’s official car during chaotic anti-Oslo demonstrations in front of the Knesset. “We got to his car,” he said, “and we’ll get to him, too.” The following month, Rabin was dead. […] > > In 2005, the Jewish Department of Shin Bet received intelligence about a plot to slow the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza by using 700 liters of gasoline to blow up vehicles on a major highway. Acting on the tip, officers arrested six men in central Israel. One of them was Bezalel Smotrich, the future minister overseeing civilian affairs in the West Bank. […] > > Benjamin Netanyahu’s determination to become prime minister for an unprecedented sixth term came with a price: an alliance with a movement that he once shunned, but that had been brought into the political mainstream by Israel’s steady drift to the right. Netanyahu, who is now on trial for bribery and other corruption charges, repeatedly failed in his attempts to form a coalition after most of the parties announced that they were no longer willing to join him. He personally involved himself in negotiations to ally Itamar Ben-Gvir’s Jewish Power party and Bezalel Smotrich’s Religious Zionism Party, making them kingmakers for anyone trying to form a coalition government. ISTM that people like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are not easily dismissable as accidental one-off failures of governance. They seem to represent an ongoing pattern of “extremification” that is committed to ever more catastrophic oppression of Palestinians, in the service of ever more radical views of Jewish destiny in Israel. Even if Netanyahu and Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are indeed summarily banished from the political scene within the next few months, what happens next? Will they be replaced with more moderate leaders representing an Israeli consensus against ongoing oppression of Palestinians? That consensus, if it exists, doesn’t seem to have been able to stop Netanyahu and Smotrich and Ben-Gvir from getting into power in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/444 "2024-05-20T19:47:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Would that stop the war, though? If the deal on the table was the release of all the hostages (ie, not this bullshit “oh we will agree to release 30 hostages and/or bodies and then trickle out more if we feel like it, and in exchange you completely pull out” nonsense), then yeah, the government would have no choice but to accept. > [@Miller](#): > > I thought the Israeli government’s goal was the complete elimination of Hamas. That _is_ the goal, and I think that withdrawing early would be a colossal mistake that would ensure another Oct 7 (and another Gaza war) in the future; but I also think that Hamas could force Israel to make that mistake if they were actually willing to release the hostages and negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/445 "2024-05-20T19:57:09Z")
Hamas bears the blame for the kidnappings and mass murder on Oct 7th. But Netanyahu and his allies bear a big part of the blame for empowering Hamas, and an even bigger part of the blame for discriminatory and brutal policies (allowing settler violence) towards Palestinians for years, and for fighting against any sort of long term peace. And they bear much of the blame for Israeli forces’ mistakes and misdeeds in this war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/446 "2024-05-20T20:09:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But Netanyahu and his allies bear a big part of the blame for empowering Hamas, and an even bigger part of the blame for discriminatory and brutal policies (allowing settler violence) towards Palestinians for years, and for fighting against any sort of long term peace. Sure, I agree, and those are the reasons I want to see them out of office and, for some of them, in jail. It isn’t equivalent to a war crime, though. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And they bear much of the blame for Israeli forces’ mistakes and misdeeds in this war. Such as they are, yes; but again, nowhere near equivalent to terrorism or war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/447 "2024-05-20T20:35:30Z")
I’m not nearly so sure. Decades of oppression and tolerance for settler violence may not technically be a war crime or terrorism, but it might be just as bad, morally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/448 "2024-05-20T21:11:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that people like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are not easily dismissable as accidental one-off failures of governance. They seem to represent an ongoing pattern of “extremification” that is committed to ever more catastrophic oppression of Palestinians, in the service of ever more radical views of Jewish destiny in rael. I don’t necessarily think this is a pattern. The only discernable pattern I can see is Netanyahu going to increasingly desperate measures to remain in power. The next election will probably be massive as far as determining the knock-on effects of this. He’s certainly given legitimacy to the far right parties, the only real hope is that he’s also damaged Likud enough that the center to center-right parties usurp them in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/449 "2024-05-20T21:55:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the deal on the table was the release of all the hostages (ie, not this bullshit “oh we will agree to release 30 hostages and/or bodies and then trickle out more if we feel like it, and in exchange you completely pull out” nonsense), then yeah, the government would have no choice but to accept. Do you think Netanyahu would abide to those terms, or would he just say, “We’ve got the hostages out, now its time to finish the job,” and keep on with the war? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/450 "2024-05-20T22:23:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you think Netanyahu would abide to those terms, or would he just say, “We’ve got the hostages out, now its time to finish the job,” and keep on with the war? They said exactly that weeks ago, don’t know why it’s been spun differently now. Hell, [61% of Israelis agree that Rafah must fall, no matter what.](https://jppi.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/gh.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/451 "2024-05-21T07:06:27Z")
Biden has declared that what is happening in Gaza is **not** genocide: > **[Biden: What's happening in Gaza is not genocide](https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-whats-happening-gaza-not-223343139.html)** > > U.S. President Joe Biden strongly defended Israel on Monday, saying Israeli forces are not committing genocide in their military campaign against Hamas militants in Gaza in a rejection of criticism from pro-Palestinian protesters. Biden has faced... Well then, I guess that settles it. But perhaps, President Biden, perhaps you could see how some folks might think it _is_ a genocide? Seems to be a pretty hot topic of discussion so I’d be curious as to your specific reasoning why this situation in particular doesn’t qualify. You said “let me be clear” so by all means, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/452 "2024-05-21T07:13:45Z")
Biden is absolutely wrong about this. What Israel is doing is the intentional genocide of the Palestinian people with the goal of eliminating them from their homes in Gaza and the West Bank and increasing Israel’s domination of the territory. The more he doubles down on his support, the more consequences he will face later this year. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/453 "2024-05-21T07:16:02Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > The more he doubles down on his support, the more consequences he will face later this year. Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden because they don’t like his stance on Gaza is just gonna _love_ the other guy’s approach. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/454 "2024-05-21T12:43:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden because they don’t like his stance on Gaza is just gonna _love_ the other guy’s approach. “I don’t care if the leopards eat my face, as long as they eat the Israelis’ faces first.” ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/455 "2024-05-21T14:49:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden because they don’t like his stance on Gaza is just gonna _love_ the other guy’s approach. 🙄 This is a fair comment, but it ignores why people might vote this way. The Republicans are a lost cause - it doesn’t matter who the next candidate is, they’re not going to give a shit about the Palestinians. There is hope, however, that the next Dem candidate might do something more than blindly sign off on whatever Israel wants to do. People voting against Biden because of his stance on Israel realize it doesn’t help in the short term, but hope it will help long term. I don’t agree with this approach, but I understand the reasoning. > [@Babale](#): > > “I don’t care if the leopards eat my face, as long as they eat the Israelis’ faces first.” This comment, on the other hand, maybe seemed witty when you typed it. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/456 "2024-05-21T14:54:48Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > People voting against Biden because of his stance on Israel realize it doesn’t help in the short term, but hope it will help long term. I don’t agree with this approach, but I understand the reasoning. When the other guy wants to destroy democracy in the long term it obviously stops making sense. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/457 "2024-05-21T15:01:00Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > There is hope, however, that the next Dem candidate might do something more than blindly sign off on whatever Israel wants to do. Well, if you completely ignore everything Biden had done to moderate Netanyahu’s approach and ensure that aid gets into Gaza, then I understand why you wouldn’t like him. Those of us who live in reality, on the other hand, have seen this: > [@Who's to blame if Biden loses?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/696): > > Speaking of, I hope everyone has seen conservatives calling Biden a leader of Hamas because of the policies some folks are insisting isn’t enough against Israel or for Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/458 "2024-05-21T15:06:56Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > People voting against Biden because of his stance on Israel realize it doesn’t help in the short term, but hope it will help long term. This assumes that there will be a long term for the Palestinians with Trump in charge in the short term. Which seems highly questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/459 "2024-05-21T15:22:44Z")
Here’s yet another reason why Israel is called (among many others) a flawed democracy1 > **[Israeli officials seize AP equipment and take down live shot of northern...](https://apnews.com/article/live-transmission-israel-associated-press-57e8f662907334ba3599156276381190)** > > The Qatari satellite channel is among thousands of clients that receive live video feeds from the AP and other news organizations. 1 [According to The Economist World Democracy index, it ranks 30 in the world, one position behind the U.S.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/460 "2024-05-21T15:30:02Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This assumes that there will be a long term for the Palestinians with Trump in charge in the short term. Which seems highly questionable. Yeah, that’s why I disagree. I’ve linked below a worthwhile article to get a little more understanding on where some Muslim-Americans are coming from. “Imagine thinking it’s a good argument to say to a community that has lost 30,000 people, ‘Watch out for the guy that’s going to ban you.’ You’re really asking me whether I’m going to take a ban or a genocide? I’ll take a ban.” Again, I think it’s wrong thinking because Trump isn’t just talking about a ban; he’s just fine with genocide too. But it’s reflective of the deep anger they feel toward Biden. I’m going to be a lot more pissed off at a friend who punches me in the face than I will at some random drunk asshole. > **[Are Arabs in Michigan Really Prepared to Hand the Presidency Back to Donald...](https://slate.com/human-interest/2024/04/donald-trump-joe-biden-2024-election-michigan-muslims.html)** > > Michigan has the power to unravel a second Biden presidency. It just might. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=24)