# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/461 "2024-05-21T18:09:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden because they don’t like his stance on Gaza is just gonna _love_ the other guy’s approach. 🙄 Yeah yeah, I’ve heard all those threats plenty of times. Carries a lot less weight this time coming from a genocide supporter like you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/462 "2024-05-21T18:19:33Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This assumes that there will be a long term for the Palestinians with Trump in charge in the short term. Trump or Biden, the Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. On the other hand, people who think they’ll let Trump get elected so they can teach the democrats a lesson and get a “real progressive” at the next election may find out that Trump and his cronies don’t intend for there to _be_ another election - at least, not one that a Democrat has a shot at winning. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/463 "2024-05-21T18:41:12Z")
“End of democracy” concern aside, the real problem\* with that strategy is it doesn’t work. When a liberal candidate loses to a more conservative opponent, the lesson isn’t, “Go more to the left,” it’s “Go more to the right.” If Biden loses this cycle, whoever replaces him in the next cycle is going to be even more conservative than Biden, and is going to pursue policies closer to Trump policies, because the evidence shows that’s what wins elections. \*I say “real problem” here because it’s inherent to the strategy regardless of context, not because it’s a more serious consequence than losing our democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/464 "2024-05-21T19:11:17Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Yeah yeah, I’ve heard all those threats plenty of times. Carries a lot less weight this time coming from a genocide supporter like you. Then maybe it’ll sound less dire coming from someone like me, who has called for Bill Clinton’s and Barack Obama’s prosecution for war crimes. My voting for a candidate doesn’t mean I like them: it means I’ve been following politics for nearly forty years now, and I’ve drawn conclusions about what works and what doesn’t work based not on theory but on data. What you’re reading as a threat isn’t a threat: it’s a prophecy. If someone says, “If you punch a bear, it’ll bite you,” they’re not threatening you, they’re warning you. If you say, “Don’t threaten me!” and punch the bear, you’re a fool. And if you punch the bear because I called you a fool, then you’re a damn fool. > [@Miller](#): > > “End of democracy” concern aside, the real problem\* with that strategy is it doesn’t work. When a liberal candidate loses to a more conservative opponent, the lesson isn’t, “Go more to the left,” it’s “Go more to the right.” If Biden loses this cycle, whoever replaces him in the next cycle is going to be even more conservative than Biden, and is going to pursue policies closer to Trump policies, because the evidence shows that’s what wins elections. Exactly right. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/465 "2024-05-22T00:04:52Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Yeah yeah, I’ve heard all those threats plenty of times. And I heard people ignoring those threats in 2016. Now abortion is illegal in half the country and over a million Americans have died needlessly. But hey, your lot got to tell yourselves it was Hillary’s fault for “not reaching out” or whatever, so I hope your vote for Jill Stein was worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/466 "2024-05-22T03:30:28Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > When the other guy wants to destroy democracy in the long term it obviously stops making sense. The other guy wants to destroy democracy _right now_. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/467 "2024-05-22T18:42:14Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > The more he doubles down on his support, the more consequences he will face later this year. Yeah, because the other candidate is campaigning to establish a “reich”. > [@Miller](#): > > If Biden loses this cycle, whoever replaces him in the next cycle is going to be even more conservative than Biden, and is going to pursue policies closer to Trump policies, because the evidence shows that’s what wins elections. Did that happen after HRC lost to Trump the first time? Or after Kerry lost to GWB? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/468 "2024-05-22T18:59:47Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Did that happen after HRC lost to Trump the first time? Or after Kerry lost to GWB? Compare Kerry to Gore, who lost for many reasons, but among them were Green candidate votes in Florida. If the protest vote approach worked, then in 2004 Democrats would have nominated someone significantly to Gore’s left. Whatever else you can say about Kerry, “significantly to the left of Gore” ain’t true. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/469 "2024-05-22T19:07:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Did that happen after HRC lost to Trump the first time? Or after Kerry lost to GWB? Yes to the first one, at least. Biden ran a more right wing campaign than Clinton did. His whole campaign was trying to bring on anti-Trump conservatives and conservative-leaning independents. That’s people were surprised that a lot of his actions were more progressive. I don’t actually remember where Kerry was on axis, so I don’t know if Obama was more conservative. I do know, however, that Bill Clinton was far more conservative than the previous Democrats. He basically spawned neoliberalism, and is often seen as the guy who destroyed the Democrats connection with labor. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/470 "2024-05-22T19:09:24Z")
Are you suggesting that the reason Howard Dean lost was because Bush beat Gore? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/471 "2024-05-22T19:09:56Z")
no sir ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/472 "2024-05-22T19:14:45Z")
On the issues, Obama ran as a moderate – open to budget cuts, eager to compromise, pushing for a “grand bargain”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/473 "2024-05-22T19:18:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes to the first one, at least. Biden ran a more right wing campaign than Clinton did. His whole campaign was trying to bring on anti-Trump conservatives and conservative-leaning independents. We saw an interesting thing in 2019. In the beginning, and right up to Super Tuesday, Bernie Sanders was the front runner. He wasn’t even a Democrat! I wonder what about Israel. Do conservative victories there tend to lead to the opposition taking a more conservative stance? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/474 "2024-05-22T19:34:25Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > > [@Smapti](#): > > > > Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden because they don’t like his stance on Gaza is just gonna _love_ the other guy’s approach. 🙄 ⁢ > > Yeah yeah, I’ve heard all those threats plenty of times. Carries a lot less weight this time coming from a genocide supporter like you. ⁢ I agree with your assessment of Smapti. But this is just ad hominem. Even an awful person can say things that are factually true. He’s right: Trump is 100% pro-Israel. He moved the consulate to Jerusalem. I know Biden isn’t where people wish he was on Palestine, but he is not been pro-Israel. He’s been very much trying to walk a balance, while becoming moving more and more against Israel. Biden is for a two state solution. All the data we have says he’s been trying to moderate Netanyahu’s actions. He’s made several obvious foreign policy moves to push back. What seems to have happened in many progressive circles is that no one actually paid attention when they were starting to get what they want. They didn’t notice the wins, and act like we’re still where we were back in October. The US may have vetoed that initial UN resolution, but they passed a different one condemning Israel. This idea that Biden is this pro-Israel genocidal madman is ridiculous. He’s not the candidate who has no morals. US policy on Israel has moved further away from Israel than ever under Biden’s tenure. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/475 "2024-05-22T19:44:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Yes to the first one, at least. Biden ran a more right wing campaign than Clinton did. His whole campaign was trying to bring on anti-Trump conservatives and conservative-leaning independents. ⁢ > > We saw an interesting thing in 2019. In the beginning, and right up to Super Tuesday, Bernie Sanders was the front runner. He wasn’t even a Democrat! And then the Democrats united behind Biden to take him out. And they were successful, which was seen as even more evidence that Bernie did not have the level of support needed to win in the general. They were counting on being able to lure over the center and even peel off principled conservatives. There’s a reason why there were several conservative groups who were willing to endorse him over Trump. Do you really think that would have happened with a self-professed socialist? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/476 "2024-05-22T20:31:00Z")
Well to be a massive devil’s advocate, a goal of the protest vote could be that the Dems keep pushing Biden types who are just less friendly to Israel. Of course this won’t happen for all the reasons discussed. It’s a bit scary to me that more people might protest vote this time around just because we didn’t have a real primary challenge for people to get out their anti-Biden emotions before eventually voting for him in the general. But I’m still hoping that people will see that this actually is an extremely important election, in part because of how different the candidates really are on Israel. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/477 "2024-05-26T15:27:31Z")
> [@I support the cause of the pro-Palestinian protestors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/279): > > Maybe you are actually a black Jew or some other BIPOC, but given the statistics, you are far more likely to be white. But I’m tired of your race crap. Find another way to act like a victim, but I don’t care. @Boudicca90 I’m replying in this thread not because it is pit worthy, but only because I saw the above in a recently locked thread and I wanted to comment… I’m not saying your opinion is irrelevant here but, if someone doesn’t identify as white (or whatever) it is only fair to respect their self-identification. Of course their opinion doesn’t automatically hold over how others self-identify (you can be skeptical for instance if they claimed all/most other Jews do not identify as white, as people can only be certain of their own internal feelings and such), but surely people can speak for themselves on matters of their own self. Its even possible that self-identification is context dependent (you might “feel white” in a very “white setting”, while doing “very white” things, but not while doing other stuff), and someone feelings can change in time too. Interpreting social identification as an absolute or rigid concept is not very valid, people can easily fall into multiple categories even when using popular well accepted ideas. Best to just accept whenever people tell you or acknowledge that your own perceptions are equally tinted by your own experiences and history which lacks whatever personal context the other person brings to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/478 "2024-05-26T16:04:46Z")
I could be wrong, but I never had the impression that (not that it does not exist at all) the Middle East was that centered on Black vs White. The people Israel are fighting do not look different or are even culturally very different to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/479 "2024-05-26T16:09:12Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I could be wrong, but I never had the impression that (not that it does not exist at all) the Middle East was that centered on Black vs White. Correct, this is _not_ a racial issue; but people in the West who are too brainrotten to view the world through any other lens insist that it is, and that Zionism is a White Supremacist ideology and all that other nonsense. You’ll note that in the other thread, Boudicca never actually engaged with anything substantive I said about Zionism; they just insisted that my opinion is invalid because I’m a whitey. The epitome of whitesplaining. I mean, they literally compared the ideology of Jewish liberation to transphobes appropriating the language of trans discussion to oppress trans people. This is literay “All Lives Matter” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/480 "2024-05-26T17:34:17Z")
I consider @Boudicca90’s opinion on this issue (and really, all others) irrelevant and not worth discussing - not because they’re trolling (I doubt they are), but because as an admitted third party voter, they’ve essentially voluntarily removed themselves from political relevance in the US. If at some point they decide to join the rational adult population in the US and vote for a political party with the hope of actually improving things (both within the party and overall), then I’d say their opinions are worth considering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=25)