# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/541 "2024-05-27T18:28:24Z")
I just want to clarify what I mean. I JUST asked the questions. How else am I to gather how you justify your feelings on the issue? I’m giving you a chance to tell me your side, but you’re being an ass. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/542 "2024-05-27T18:28:45Z")
And your side is indiscriminately ending real lives with no end in sight. And you can once again remind us all of 4000 years of history and who killed whose great grandmother. It doesn’t change the fact that right now Israel is slaughtering people just because they can. And I don’t care if it is genocide or not. Bibs is in thrall to the hard liners, and sucking up to the settlement movement. You continually make a big deal about the founding of Israel being a secular movement. But right now the nation is being sucked under by ultra religious ultra conservatives who honestly seem to be the ying to Hamas’ yang. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/543 "2024-05-27T18:33:39Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > You assume people are protesting this mess are “Jew haters”? What about all the Jewish people who disagree with you on this? Nope, I assume that most of the people protesting are just ignorant useful idiots. Of the organizers of the protests, there are two main motivations. The first is indeed antisemitism. The second is the sort of braindead Tankie take that says the West is Imperialist and Evil and therefore anything fighting against the West is heroic and worthy of praise (I learned more about the second group over the last couple weeks, I read a bunch of SJP and other groups in order to see what the ideological backing for their own ideas are; and it really does read like Soviet claptrap.) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/544 "2024-05-27T18:40:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Nope, I assume that most of the people protesting are just ignorant useful idiots. It as simple as they are people, real human beings, who are suffering and dying in a very bloody and violent war. They are caught in it (and targeted because of who they are). This is enough to get anybody up in arms. I love living in safety and I am no better then any Gazan who cannot. Their suffering must end. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/545 "2024-05-27T18:51:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not why I think the Israelis are doing “the same”. I think it because it’s extremely well-documented. It’s not like the IOF _hides_ what it does. Yes that super secret “Genocide” Which resulted in a population increase for the Palestinians over a 70 year period! > [@MrDibble](#): > > “The same” here would be - imprisoning and torturing dissidents, stealing land, requiring onerous travel documents, turning a blind eye to any murders your own civilians commit on the outgroup (even assisting them)…yep, checks out That isn’t genocide anymore than White minority rule in SA was ‘Genocide’ The West Bank and Gaza are and have been military occupied Territories, not part of Israel proper. > [@MrDibble](#): > > That Israel was _also_ willing to get in bed with racist fascists isn’t the reason I think Israel is an apartheid state (and so much worse, now), it just speaks to the general hypocrisy of that state, and is also why anyone clinging to any “Boo Hoo, Holocaust!” excuses for genocide just make me laugh, nowadays. “Never again” is a lie - Israel doesn’t give a shit about fascists, as long as the fascists are pointed elsewhere. None of which despite your hyperbole constitutes Genocide and of which doesn’t negate the other fact that Hamas is the perpetrator of the current conflict and can’t exactly cry uncle when it’s getting its ass beat. > Grannies and 5-year olds being sniped, people being starved, hospitals destroyed - genocide. Israeli women being raped and murdered in front of their husbands and families being butchered on masse due to being Jewish = Genocide What you’re describing is the fog of war or incidents which aren’t wholeheartedly supported by the IDF or Israeli government where as with the Hamas charter, _its part of their own credo_ > [@MrDibble](#): > > And “human shields” only counts as an excuse, _maybe_, if the person is actually directly holding them between you and them. Bomb a house of 30 with kids and grannies, to get one guy, and you can fuck off with your “human shield” bullshit. It’s as much of a lie as “never again”, fascist-lover. Still not genocide future EEF supporter ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/546 "2024-05-27T18:52:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Still not genocide future EEF supporter If I remember correctly I think MrDibble votes DA (I think). ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/547 "2024-05-27T18:54:06Z")
Considering the Hamas charter has genocide of the Jews in it, then it would yes. Why you’re trying to moral equivalent Hamas to the IDF is beyond me ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/548 "2024-05-27T18:57:38Z")
Because neither one of them has any concern for the sanctity of human life. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/549 "2024-05-27T18:59:20Z")
Sure they did ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/550 "2024-05-27T18:59:33Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > And your side is indiscriminately ending real lives with no end in sight No, it isn’t. You can keep saying it is all you want, but in reality Israel is being very careful about where it bombs. The situation in Gaza is just such a shitshow thanks to Hamas that when you bomb Hamas, you also hit civilians. You can deny that reality all you want, but if you do, don’t expect me to take interest in any conclusion you draw based on that faulty premise. If that means we lose your support, oh no, whatever shall we do without it? > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > You continually make a big deal about the founding of Israel being a secular movement. But right now the nation is being sucked under by ultra religious ultra conservatives who honestly seem to be the ying to Hamas’ yang. I agree, which is why just before Oct 7, I supported the massive protests against Netanyahu’s government and judicial overhaul bill. Keep in mind, Netanyahu is not currently in charge; he is part of a three way cabinet with his political opponents. So far there has been general agreement in Israel about what needs to be done: defeating Hamas by invading Gaza. Now, as the fighting in Gaza nears its conclusion, and the time comes to implement a post war plan for how to handle Gaza, Netanyahu’s cabinet is starting to turn against him. (Which, by the way, I am totally behind. Time to toss him and jail him.) > [@orcenio](#): > > I love living in safety and I am no better then any Gazan who cannot. Their suffering must end. I agree completely. Do you think that giving Hamas a ceasefire so we can go through all this again in 5 years would accomplish this? Or would defeating Hamas and setting up a Palestinian state be a better way to go about this? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/551 "2024-05-27T19:01:19Z")
Yes Hamas is the equivalent of the IDF, get real ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/552 "2024-05-27T19:05:46Z")
It sure seems to me that a significant portion of the IDF are right wing extremists. Why are you so sure that some significant number of IDF members aren’t trying their hardest to kill Gazan civilians? If only a few percent of them (and I suspect it’s more like 20%) follow the vision of extremist Israeli leaders, then that would be hundreds or thousands of soldiers, likely including some officers, perfectly happy to kill Gazan civilians and make it seem legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/553 "2024-05-27T19:05:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > charge; he is part of a three way cabinet with his political opponents. So far there has been general agreement in Israel about what needs to be done: defeating Hamas by invading Gaza. Now, as the fighting in Gaza nears its conclusion, and the time comes to implement a post war plan for how to handle Gaza, Netanyahu’s cabinet is starting to turn against him. (Which, by the way, I am totally behind. Time to toss him and jail him.) I worry the more Israel, (purposely or not), kills civilians the more issues they’ll perhaps have in the future. I could be wrong. Just curious as to how you respond. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/554 "2024-05-27T19:06:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree completely. Do you think that giving Hamas a ceasefire so we can go through all this again in 5 years would accomplish this? Or would defeating Hamas and setting up a Palestinian state be a better way to go about this? I don’t honestly think Hamas is being defeated. I 100% know Gazans are suffering and dying very very very horribly (my timeline has given me nightmares). I don’t trust this war or how it is being conducted. Too much suffering and death. Considering the bad blood between Israel and Gaza/Palestine I had little faith at the start of the war but, now, I really don’t trust it. The war must end. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/555 "2024-05-27T19:10:56Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > They are caught in it (and targeted because of who they are). What?? This current war started in October because their compatriots attacked Israel and slaughtered thousands of people purely because _Of who they are_ They started the war, any introspection from the Palestinians about _that?_ ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/556 "2024-05-27T19:15:27Z")
100% Israelis were targeted and slaughtered because they were Israelis (or Jews, or merely associating with etc.), but Gazans are too suffering because of this. All Gazans are suffering through this war. They are not all Hamas. They did not choose to be born in Gaza to the circumstances that they exist in. Not any more then myself. Gazans didn’t start this war. They were born into it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/557 "2024-05-27T19:18:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It sure seems to me that a significant portion of the IDF are right wing extremists. Why does it “sure seem” that way to you? I haven’t seen anything that made me think this is the case? One thing I _have_ seen, which _does_ trouble me, is the fact that in the West Bank there have been some auxiliary units set up, which contain people rejected from IDF service due to extremist views about the Settlements, and that these units (which shouldn’t be set in the first place, to be clear) have been used in ways that put them directly in contact with Palestinians, which is obviously a terrible idea for reasons that should be very obvious. The guy who shot an Israeli man who had just killed a terrorist in the middle of an attack was a member of one of these groups, for example. These groups aren’t being used in Gaza, and they’re a tiny part of the IDF. So while their existence is extremely troubling, especially because the IDF said they did not want this but the civilian government created it anyways, I don’t see this driving mass numbers of killings of civilians by the IDF. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why are you so sure that some significant number of IDF members aren’t trying their hardest to kill Gazan civilians? Because I am very familiar with the IDF’s culture, despite not having served myself. Keep in mind, the same fighter pilots that are supposedly dropping bombs on civilians for shits and giggles had people like Ben Gvir so wound up that they wanted to charge them with treason, because they weren’t willing to fly missions that they believed served no military purpose and were just about political gains for Netanyahu. My faith is in people like them. > [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Just curious as to how you respond. To what, vague “worries”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/558 "2024-05-27T19:20:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > What?? This current war started in October because their compatriots attacked Israel and slaughtered thousands of people purely because _Of who they are_ That’s sort of conveniently ignoring the alternative possibility that the primary reason for Hamas (and other Palestinian) attacks on Israeli Jews is not so much who they are, as where they are, and what they are doing. Namely: Where they are is on the ancestral homeland of Palestinian people who were unwillingly displaced and dispossessed from their homes a few decades ago. And what they are doing is insisting that they are entitled to control, and selectively annex, all of the territory that Palestinians used to live on, while denying rights and sovereignty to Palestinians. Any Israel supporter who tries to paint Palestinian antagonism toward Israel as merely a matter of spontaneous identity-based “Jew hatred”, while ignoring the many valid reasons that Palestinians as a people have to resent the actions of the Israeli nation-state and its citizens, is IMHO not arguing in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/559 "2024-05-27T19:27:08Z")
You seem to think that I am arguing about the accuracy of Israeli bombing. I am decrying the fact that they are bombing at all. I fully appreciate that there is no way to bomb Hamas without impacting civilians, so stop bombing. And I shall continue to say that until Israel stops killing people with no end in site. Are you objecting to my use of the word indiscriminately? Would you prefer me to think that Israel is killing civilians on purpose? The reason you should care about my opinions is that I am not alone. I have gone from be neutral on the Israel/Palestinian conflict to being opposed to Israel. It won’t take much to make me pro-Palestinian. And I vote, and so do my kids who are already pro-Palestinian. You have spent a lot of time on this site laying out reasons for supporting Israel, and the justifications for the establishment of the state. However, most of your arguments, while often valid, concern ancient history. Or events that may as well be ancient history to the current youth of America. You are proud of your heritage and your traditional homeland. Which is swell. But for someone who isn’t Jewish, there is absolutely nothing that Israel has done over the past twenty years in order to gain my support or my sympathy. All I see is nation that has become a racist oppressor of it’s neighbor. You also continue to mention how when the war is over it is time to get rid of Netanyahu. I agree, but I have no confidence in that actually happening, or perhaps more importantly of their being any substantive change in Israel’s policies whether or not he is given the boot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/560 "2024-05-27T19:31:28Z")
Because we keep seeing bad things the IDF has done. Including dead civilians for no apparent reason, on multiple occasions. Plus social media vids from masked IDF members swearing a mutiny of they aren’t allowed to destroy Gaza (or whatever). I think you’re familiar with about 80% of IDF culture, and convincing yourself that there’s no other significant part of it. ISTM that right wing extremist rule for decades is going to trickle into the military, no matter the culture to begin with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=29)