# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/581 "2024-05-27T20:53:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You think the Ukrainian journalists are spread over all the countryside? No, but they are certainly spread out across multiple cities near the various fronts. Across areas that are larger than Israel and the Palestinian territories combined. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, 20, 000 is a very rough count of the people killed by the IOF, that they should not. _All_ the women and children. “Sometimes” 🙄 . There’s a difference between an Israeli soldier killing a civilian in cold blood, an Israeli soldier killing a civilian because he mistook them for a militant, and an airstrike on a military target that also his civilians. You are pointing to an incident that we can argue over wheter it represents an example of the first or second scenario and trying to equate that to how those civilians died, when in fact the vast majority of casualties come from neither 1 nor 2 but 3. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Remind me, and you’ll get one. I’m not setting an alarm, myself. > > Will _you_ commit to apologizing if thousands _have_ starved? If that were to happen, yep. Unless Israel radically changes course (as in, a Ben Gvir and Co led coup, or something) I just don’t see that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/582 "2024-05-27T20:54:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Are you talking about [the 2017 revised Hamas charter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter) which is currently in force? Because that document says No one is buying that BS especially after Oct 7th > [@Kimstu](#): > > What is the “explicit demonstration of contempt for Jews” that you feel [that charter](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full) is expressing? It being made manifest on October 7th, October 7th and October 7th. > [@Kimstu](#): > > (Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that there doubtless are a lot of Hamas members, and other Palestinians, who are antisemitic as well as anti-Israel. I just don’t buy the claims that anti-Israel views are automatically identical with, or necessarily inspired by, antisemitism.) Then you’re quite naive, they’re intertwined at this point, case in point October 7th. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/583 "2024-05-27T20:55:54Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it’s driven by legitimate grievances and Jew hatred But you don’t bother to acknowledge the legitimate grievances unless you’re explicitly challenged on ignoring them. Your default is just to go on parroting propaganda about the Hamas terror attacks slaughtering Jewish Israelis “purely because of who they are”: i.e., solely out of Jew hatred, with no legitimate grievances anywhere in the underlying motivation. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No one is buying that BS especially after Oct 7th […] > > It being made manifest on October 7th, October 7th and October 7th. […] > > Then you’re quite naive, they’re intertwined at this point, case in point October 7th. You know, an important feature of propaganda rhetoric is supposed to be that it isn’t blindingly obvious as propaganda. You could not be making it any clearer that rational consistency and understanding don’t matter to you on these issues: when confronted with any weak points in your arguments, you’re just going to fall back on “October 7” and “slaughtering Jews” as emotional rallying cries to close off any uncomfortable engagement with facts. Believe me, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the terror attacks of October 7 were horrifically atrocious and disastrous all around. But I am not going to let that recognition just destroy my capacity for rational thought, as you seem willing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/584 "2024-05-27T21:07:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But you don’t bother to acknowledge the legitimate grievances unless you’re explicitly challenged on ignoring them. Your default is just to go on parroting propaganda about the Hamas terror attacks slaughtering Jewish Israelis “purely because of who they are”: i.e., solely out of Jew hatred, with no legitimate grievances anywhere in the underlying motivation. I understand the legitimate grievances however one point missing from all this is the Palestinians own intransigence in respects to a two state solution, what’s the point of a ceasefire if the underlying will to fight on the Palestinian side is not diminished. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/585 "2024-05-27T21:35:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You know, an important feature of propaganda rhetoric is supposed to be that it isn’t blindingly obvious as propaganda. You could not be making it any clearer that rational consistency and understanding don’t matter to you on these issues: when confronted with any weak points in your arguments, you’re just going to fall back on “October 7” and “slaughtering Jews” as emotional rallying cries to close off any uncomfortable engagement with facts. I’m not uncomfortable with the notions of Palestinian aspirations, I’m just not blind to their virulent anti semitism made manifest on situations like October 7th. If anything it’s pro Palestinians who are uncomfortable with the more unsavoury aspects of the Palestinian cause which they’re unable to come to terms with. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/586 "2024-05-27T21:47:11Z")
Your making mass judgments about a big group of people (millions!) with diverse views on a number of things. That makes it easy to condone collective punishment and mass suffering. But the truth is that the vast majority of Palestinians played no role in the Oct 7th attacks. Killing them by the thousands isn’t helping anyone but Hamas (and their functional allies in the Israeli government, who similarly just want continued violence and suffering). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/587 "2024-05-28T00:57:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > These claims that Israel is sTaRvInG Gaza started on Oct 10th. …the claims back in October were that if the siege were to continue, it would result in famine. And thats where we are now. From noted left-wing propagandist, Cindy McCain: > [@AP](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) — A top U.N. official said Friday that hard-hit northern Gaza was now in “full-blown famine” after more than six months of [war between Israel and Hamas](https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war) and severe Israeli restrictions on food deliveries to the Palestinian territory. > > Cindy McCain, the American director of the U.N. World Food Program, became the most prominent international official so far to declare that trapped civilians in the most cut-off part of Gaza had gone over the brink into famine. > > “It’s horror,” McCain told NBC’s “Meet the Press” in an interview to air Sunday. “There is famine — full-blown famine — in the north, and it’s moving its way south.” > **[A senior UN official says northern Gaza is now in 'full-blown famine'](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-israel-famine-humanitarian-aid-children-8a4cb5736c42caf50b6e204f40d83a91)** > > A top U.N. official says hard-hit northern Gaza is now in “full-blown famine” after more than six months of war between Israel and Hamas and severe Israeli restrictions on food deliveries to the Palestinian territory. > [@Babale](#): > > Starvation hasn’t materialized. > [@AP](#): > > Doing so is difficult. Aid groups note that Israeli airstrikes and raids have devastated medical facilities in northern Gaza and displaced much of the population. Along with restrictions on access, they complicate the ability to formally collect data on deaths. > **[The UN says there's 'full-blown famine' in northern Gaza. What does that mean?](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff)** > > The head of the United Nations World Food Program says northern Gaza has entered “full-blown famine” after nearly seven months of war between Israel and Hamas. The first condition of famine, “20% of households have an extreme lack of food, or essentially starving”, has been met. The second condition, at least 30% of children suffer from acute malnutrition or wasting, meaning they’re too thin for their height, has nearly been met. The third condition, " two adults or four children per every 10,000 people are dying daily of hunger and its complications" can’t be met, not because it is or isn’t happening, but because it is nearly impossible to track the number of deaths. Any of the remaining hospitals are effectively trauma centres now. People dying quietly in their homes or at a refugee camp or in a tent or in the ruins of a building aren’t going to get a death certificate. This is, of course, deliberate. The near complete destruction of infrastructure, the killing of journalists, shutting down the hospitals, this is the point. You get to come on here smugly and declare “starvation hasn’t materialized” when you know full well about the famine, about the siege, about how every single humanitarian agency has said the same thing, that Gazans are starving. > [@Babale](#): > > For example, over the last couple weeks, daily average number of trucks of aid coming in is back up to the 4-500 from before the war. From today: > [@Flash Update](#): > > There has been nothing limited about the suffering and misery that Israel’s military operation in Rafah has brought to the people of Gaza… [it] has cut off the flow of aid into southern Gaza and crippled a humanitarian operation already stretched beyond its breaking point. It has halted food distributions in the south and slowed the supply of fuel for Gaza’s lifelines – bakeries, hospitals and water wells – to a mere trickle… > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #171 - occupied...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-171)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Food and Nutrition, Epidemic and more; published on 27 May 2024 by OCHA > [@](#): > > Egypt’s state-affiliated Al-Qahera TV on Sunday shared a video on X, showing aid trucks entering Gaza through the crossing, known to Israelis as Kerem Shalom. Aid officials said 200 trucks loaded with aid are set to enter the strip. > > … > > “The 200 trucks are not nearly enough in the face of the challenges and the hard, difficult conditions created by not only the intense bombing campaign but by the conditions created on the ground,” said Mahmoud. > > … > > Sunday’s volume of deliveries still falls far short of what the United Nations says is the minimum of 500 to 600 trucks required daily to feed millions of people – most of them refugees – on the brink of starvation. > **[Aid trucks enter Gaza after weeks as Israeli attacks continue across strip](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/26/aid-trucks-enter-gaza-after-weeks-as-israeli-attacks-continue-across-strip)** > > Estimated 200 aid trucks far short of a minimum of 500-600 trucks required daily to feed millions of Palestinians. Its very important to note that the claims of “5-600 trucks of aid” are coming from COGAT, who are not a reliable source and are effectively state propaganda. For example, this Tweet: > [@COGAT](#): > > Last week 1,981 trucks entered Gaza. 284 trucks by other UN agencies ONLY 7 from UNRWA Since everybody else seems to be able to send supplies to Gaza, maybe the problem is with > > [@UNRWA](https://x.com/UNRWA) > > ? [https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1794680080754708874](https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1794680080754708874) > **[Aid trucks enter Gaza after weeks as Israeli attacks continue across strip](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/26/aid-trucks-enter-gaza-after-weeks-as-israeli-attacks-continue-across-strip)** > > Estimated 200 aid trucks far short of a minimum of 500-600 trucks required daily to feed millions of Palestinians. A reminder: Israel controls who can get into and out of Gaza, including what trucks get through and which ones don’t. From earlier this year: > [@](#): > > Almost half of all the food missions to Gaza were denied in March and February, with over 400 aid trucks being denied or impeded by Israeli authorities last month, UNRWA reported on Monday. > > UNRWA continues to face disproportionate restrictions on access as the enclave’s residents are becoming more desperate for food, with over 1.1 million people projected to face catastrophic levels of food insecurity by July, the organisation said in its latest situation report published on Tuesday. > > “In March 2024, a total of 420 food trucks were denied or impeded by Israeli authorities. Following reports of imminent famine, 40.5% of all food missions have been denied in February and March,” UNRWA reported. > **[UNRWA: Over 400 aid trucks denied entry to Gaza last month](https://en.aletihad.ae/news/mena-world/4478006/unrwa--over-400-aid-trucks-denied-entry-to-gaza-last-month)** > > Almost half of all the food missions to Gaza were denied in March and February, with over 400 aid trucks being denied or impeded by Israeli authorities last month, UNRWA reported on Monday. I can’t source any current information right now, but considering they are voting to designate UNRWA as a terrorist organisation, it is likely UNRWA trucks were denied entry as opposed the claims that they aren’t providing any aid. > **[Knesset to hold preliminary vote designating UNRWA a terror organization](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-803734)** > > “Without a shadow of a doubt, the UNRWA agency proved on October 7 that it is a terrorist organization that is no different from the terrorist organization Hamas." > [@Babale](#): > > For example, I know it doesn’t fit the narrative so doesn’t get reported on, but 800k-1mil civilians were successfully evacuated from Rafah over a couple weeks before the current operation, A question for you: what exactly were a million people doing in Rafah? Gaza has a population of 2.3 million people. How did nearly half of them end up in a city in the southernmost border? They ended up there because they were forced there. They were ordered to leave their homes and then their homes were either bombed or destroyed in controlled demolitions. Many of them have been displaced multiple times. Bounced from city-to-city, block-to-block, grid section-to-grid section, like ping-pong balls. This wasn’t an “evacuation.” It’s a fucking warcrime. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative. But that what this is. When word came that they were going into Rafah, _of course_ many were ready to go. But where exactly have they “evacuated” to? They’ve returned to bombed out cities and towns and are living in rubble. Or they’ve fled to al-Mawasi, where Israel have been driving people to since the start of this “war”, which is the size of Heathrow Airport and > [@FT](#): > > Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of [FT.com](https://www.ft.com) [T&Cs](https://help.ft.com/help/legal-privacy/terms-conditions/) and [Copyright Policy](https://help.ft.com/help/legal-privacy/copyright/copyright-policy/). Email [licensing@ft.com](mailto:licensing@ft.com) to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be [found here](https://www.ft.com/tour). > [Satellite images show Gazans forced to cram into Al-Mawasi tent city](https://www.ft.com/content/07202a13-08fd-4a27-b612-50927561b4c5) > > New arrivals are met with sprawling, cramped encampments with no running water, a handful of inadequate field hospitals and the accelerating spread of disease, all under a baking Mediterranean sun that in a late April heatwave brought temperatures above 40C. People queue for hours for scarce toilets. “Will Al-Mawasi and whatever existing infrastructure is here be able to handle the sudden influx of more internally displaced people?” said Aurélie Godard, a Médecins Sans Frontières team leader in Gaza. “The answer is clearly no . . . the infrastructure is non-existent, there’s no access to water, there’s no latrines. It is already a disaster.” > **[Satellite images show Gazans forced to cram into Al-Mawasi tent city](https://www.ft.com/content/07202a13-08fd-4a27-b612-50927561b4c5)** > > Fishing village and former Israeli settlement becomes inhospitable home for tens of thousands of Palestinians > [@BBC](#): > > "There’s nowhere to go. Khan Younis, let’s be clear, is rubble,” he told the BBC. “I’ve walked around those streets of Khan Younis. It’s not a little bit destroyed, it’s utterly devastated.” > > “Deir al-Balah… has now got raw sewage running through the streets because sanitation has just been devastated, and al-Mawasi is a beach, a sandy area, and we’re starting to hit summer.” > > “We’ve already had reports of children dying of dehydration. So when we’re told that people should move to humanitarian zones, that’s a terrifying irony when humanitarians aren’t working in these zones." > > But, he added: “Of course, families will move. They will move because they will move or be bombed.” > **[Gaza war: Where has Israel told Rafah displaced to go?](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2le2njgjvlo)** > > Many Palestinians are fleeing eastern parts of Rafah after the Israeli military ordered their evacuation. > [@](#): > > despite American whining that this would be impossible without a humanitarian crisis and four months Bullshit. It’s _already_ a humanitarian crisis. People were “whining” about going into Rafah because it would be impossible to do so without it turning into a bloodbath. And what happened last night, which _finally_ resulted in nearly full condemnation from the international community and a backtrack from Netanyahu just proved those “whining Americans” were very much correct. You can’t drop bombs on tent cities and expect anything else but carnage. There is video from last night of beheaded babies and people being burned alive. > [@Babale](#): > > You can use emotionally charged language as much as you’d like, but it does not change the fact that Israel makes extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties. > [@+972 Magazine](#): > > During the early stages of the war, the army gave sweeping approval for officers to adopt Lavender’s kill lists, with no requirement to thoroughly check why the machine made those choices or to examine the raw intelligence data on which they were based. > … > normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male. > **[‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/)** > > The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal. The claim that “Israel makes extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties” is a bullshit claim. Not when they use “Artificial Intelligence” targeting systems to mark tens-of-thousands of Gazans for assassination, where at times the only “check and balance” was whether they were male or not. When the people in charge did this: > [@+972 Magazine](#): > > Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. According to the sources, this was because, from what they regarded as an intelligence standpoint, it was easier to locate the individuals in their private houses. Additional automated systems, including one called “Where’s Daddy?” also revealed here for the first time, were used specifically to track the targeted individuals and carry out bombings when they had entered their family’s residences. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/588 "2024-05-28T01:33:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its very important to note that the claims of “5-600 trucks of aid” are coming from COGAT, who are not a reliable source and are effectively state propaganda That’s pretty rich, considering you immediately go on to cite Al Jazeera, which is _literally_ state owned propaganda. You are _beyond_ parody, banquet buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/589 "2024-05-28T01:35:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A question for you: what exactly were a million people doing in Rafah? They were obviously evacuated there as part of those extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties despite Hamas’ best efforts. Which I’m sure you’ll recast as literally genocide because again, you are beyond parody. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/590 "2024-05-28T01:46:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s pretty rich, considering you immediately go pn to cite Al Jazeera, which is _literally_ state owned propaganda. …I love it how this is your only rebuttal. Because lets be honest here, thats all that you have. Everything else that you said were lies and propaganda. There were no “500 trucks a day.” Gazans are starving. There is a famine. > [@Babale](#): > > They were obviously evacuated there as part of those extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties despite Hamas’ best efforts. Which I’m sure you’ll recast as literally genocide because again, you are beyond parody. Its ethnic cleansing. There has been no “extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties” by the IDF. They’ve literally razed fields, burned down hospital, destroyed Mosques, destroyed every university, bombed apartment blocks, bulldozed schools, and laughed and cheered while they did it. They’ve detained thousands of Palestinians, both from Gaza and the West Bank and abused, humiliated and tortured many of them. We’ve got the footage. We’ve got the testimony from people who worked in the prisons. This is the regime you are defending. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/591 "2024-05-28T01:49:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Everything else that you said were lies and propaganda. There were no “500 trucks a day.” Gazans are starving. There is a famine. Ok, let’s talk in a year and see if anyone actually starved. We clearly disagree on the facts and I’m not gonna convince you otherwise because I’m an evil Zionist pig. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its ethnic cleansing. Bingo! > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They’ve literally razed fields, burned down hospital, destroyed Mosques, destroyed every university, bombed apartment blocks, bulldozed schools, and laughed and cheered while they did it. For shits and giggles? Because the Yahud is so evil and vile? Or maybe because Hamas was fighting out of those locations? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/592 "2024-05-28T02:07:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ok, let’s talk in a year and see if anyone actually starved. …I don’t need to talk to you in a year to “see if anyone’s actually starved.” The American director of the U.N. World Food Program has said that there is “full-blown famine” in the north. Which means people are dying of starvation by the official designations and metrics. We just don’t know how many. > [@Babale](#): > > Bingo! I mean, my views here aren’t exactly a secret. “Bingo!” when I say the thing that I’ve provided extensive evidence of for months isn’t the victory you think it is. > [@Babale](#): > > For shits and giggles? Sometimes. > **[Israeli soldier films himself blowing up a mosque | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/02/15/exp-amanpour-idf-social-media-pkg-021501pseg2-cnni-world.cnn)** > > CNN’s Jeremy Diamond reports on an unfolding trend on social media, where IDF soldiers are posting their military offensive in real time. > [@Babale](#): > > Or maybe because Hamas was fighting out of those locations? You mean controlled demolitions of entire apartment blocks? Where IDF soldiers are able to freely and safely walk around and plant explosives, then get to a safe distance so they can get a big explosion so they can share it on TikTok? There weren’t any Hamas there, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/593 "2024-05-28T02:15:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You mean controlled demolitions of entire apartment blocks? Where IDF soldiers are able to freely and safely walk around and plant explosives, then get to a safe distance so they can get a big explosion so they can share it on TikTok? Because, as we all know, genocide means making sure a building is completely unoccupied before carefully demolishing it in a way that won’t danage other inhabited structures. When will this barbarism end?! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/594 "2024-05-28T02:19:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Which means people are dying of starvation by the official designations and metrics. We just don’t know how many. 🤣 What a fucking joke. Even the lying ~~Gaza~~ Hamas Ministry of Health doesn’t claim this particular lie. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Sometimes That article shows soldiers taking joy in blowing up buildings. But of course, if they are blowing up a valid military target full of Hamas equipment and tunnels, there’s nothing wrong with that, so… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You mean controlled demolitions of entire apartment blocks? Entire apartment blocks get used by Hamas to launch their war against Israel, so yes, entire apartment blocks (and the massive tunnel networks unnderneath them). Anyways, the mass murder of unoccupied buildings would be Dormicide, not Genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/595 "2024-05-28T02:21:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > there’s nothing wrong with that, so… I mean morally, mind you - their commanding officers should definitely not be letting them use their phones to record TikTok videos on duty, especially considering TikTok’s ties to China. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/596 "2024-05-28T02:33:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because, as we all know, genocide means making sure a building is completely unoccupied before carefully demolishing it in a way that won’t danage other inhabited structures. …well, no. The case for genocide has been made here: > **[192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB Thats several months out-of-date now, of course. The scale of atrocities is now much, much worse. And they weren’t"carefully demolishing it in a way that won’t danage other inhabited structures. Because as we’ve just been talking about, over a million people have been displaced, and because of this: > [@AP](#): > > The world hasn’t seen anything like the unprecedented [destruction of housing](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796) in Gaza since World War II, and it would take at least until 2040 to restore the homes devastated in Israel’s bombing and ground offensive if the conflict ended today, the United Nations reported Thursday. > > … > > It called the level of casualties – 5% of Gaza’s 2.3 million population – “unprecedented” in such a short time. By mid-April, it said, over 33,000 Palestinians had been killed and more than 80,000 injured. About 7,000 others remain missing, most believed to be buried under the rubble. > > … > > At least 370,000 housing units in Gaza have been damaged, including 79,000 destroyed completely, the report said, along with commercial buildings. > > After previous Israel-Hamas conflicts, housing was rebuilt at a rate of 992 units a year, it said. Even if Israel allows a five-fold increase of construction material to enter Gaza, it would take until 2040 to rebuild the destroyed houses, without repairing the damaged ones. > **[The unprecedented destruction of housing in Gaza hasn't been seen since World...](https://apnews.com/article/un-report-gaza-destruction-housing-economy-recovery-4f61dcca7db3fd5eb3da5c6a25001e12)** > > The United Nations says the world hasn’t seen anything like the unprecedented destruction of housing in Gaza since World War II, and it would take at least until 2040 to restore the homes devastated in Israel’s bombing and ground offensive if the... > [@Babale](#): > > What a fucking joke. Even the lying ~~Gaza~~ Hamas Ministry of Health doesn’t claim this particular lie. Here it is folks. Bable is calling Cindy McCain a liar. Bable hasn’t, of course, presented any evidence to the contrary. Just _declared_ that there is no starvation in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > That article shows soldiers taking joy in blowing up buildings. Not only that. There was the humiliation of the prisoners in there as well. > [@Babale](#): > > But of course, _if_ they are blowing up a valid military target full of Hamas equipment and tunnels, there’s nothing wrong with that, so… The “if” is the important part here. Because the evidence that they are blowing up “valid military targets full of Hamas equipment and tunnels” is virtually non-existent. I know it is, because I’ve looked, and if it existed you’d be sharing it here in this thread. > [@Babale](#): > > Entire apartment blocks get used by Hamas to launch their war against Israel, so yes, entire apartment blocks (and the massive tunnel networks unnderneath them). Nah. These are straight up war crimes. The “massive tunnel networks” are both Hamas and IDF propaganda. Yes, tunnels exist, but not to the extent that it required the whole-scale destruction of thousands of homes and the forced displacement of well over a million people. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/597 "2024-05-28T02:42:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Here it is folks. Bable is calling Cindy McCain a liar. > > Bable hasn’t, of course, presented any evidence to the contrary. Just _declared_ that there is no starvation in Gaza. What the fuck are you talking about? You are delusional. Cindy McCain claimed that people in Gaza are dying of starvation, beyond the two dozen or so claimed by the Gaza Ministry of Health? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/598 "2024-05-28T02:47:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Thats several months out-of-date now, of course. Exactly. You’ve been posting the same hyperbolic rant for seven months now and this mass starvation and die-off is always just about to happen ANY DAY NOW. You’ve been saying the Gazans are out of food since October. It’s been 3 months since you claimed the people had nothing to eat but grass. I’ve lost track of how many times “the last hospital” has been destroyed. And yet the HIGHEST estimated death counts, which are coming from literal propaganda outlets anyway, don’t go much higher than 35,000 - barely 1.5% of Gaza’s population (which incidentslly has quadrupled since Israel first took over in 1967.) That’s not genocide. That’s barely a rounding error. Covid has likely killed more Gazan civilians than Israel has. You’re full of hot air, hyperbole, and antisemitic propaganda and you should really just shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/599 "2024-05-28T02:49:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The “if” is the important part here. Because the evidence that they are blowing up “valid military targets full of Hamas equipment and tunnels” is virtually non-existent. I know it is, because I’ve looked, and if it existed you’d be sharing it here in this thread. I’ve posted plenty of videos and pictures, and each time your response was to bend over backwards to dismiss it. Right, the RPGs in the basement of the hospital were there because some wounded Hamas soldier came in to treat his injuries and he brought his rocket launcher along. Give me a fucking break. You’re clearly not interested in any evidence that Israel has just cause to operate in Gaza, because you’ve made your mind up about it being a genocide before the war even started. You’re not operating in a reality based paradigm, so arguing with you or providing evidence to you is a waste of time. If you honestly think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, I guess I have nothing else to say to you. You can cope and seethe for the next couple of months until the dust settles and it becomes obvious that the Gazans aren’t going anywhere. Maybe at that point you will realize you were wrong; far more likely, you will twist logic into even tighter knots in prder to convince yourself that Zionism is the evil and genocidal ideology you’ve convinced yourself it is. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/600 "2024-05-28T03:07:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cindy McCain claimed that people in Gaza are dying of starvation, beyond the two dozen or so claimed by the Gaza Ministry of Health? …you haven’t read any of my cites? Cindy McCain has declared that northern Gaza is in full blown famine. You aren’t in famine unless people are dying of starvation. The “two dozen or so” claimed by the Gaza Ministry of Health were from months ago. The situation, including communication and reporting, have deteriorated substantially since then, including burning down Al Shifa where a lot of the reporting was collated. This is the current state of hospitals in Gaza: > [@](#): > > Al Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in the central city of Deir Al Balah and the European Hospital in the southern city of Khan Younis are struggling to continue treating the hundreds of patients in their care, including those with chronic illnesses and those injured in attacks by the Israeli military, officials said. > > In the north, recent operations by the Israeli military in its war against Hamas has left Al Ahli Arab Hospital as the only functioning medical facility there, Ismael Thawabta, director of the government media office in Gaza, told _The National_. > **[Gaza's last working hospitals face shutdown due to lack of fuel and medical...](https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/05/24/gazas-last-working-hospitals-face-shutdown-due-to-lack-of-fuel-and-medical-supplies/)** > > Officials say only three out of 36 hospitals in enclave are still functioning, one at just 15 per cent capacity That was three days ago. Its worse now, with reports that one of the hospitals in Rafah has had to close in the last few hours. When they can’t even treat the people that are being bombed right now, how do you expect them to know how many are dying of starvation? > [@Babale](#): > > I’ve posted plenty of videos and pictures, and each time your response was to bend over backwards to dismiss it. Here’s your chance. You can share them here. Go for it. Justify the damage and destruction of an estimated 70% (recorded in December) of homes. > [@Babale](#): > > Right, the RPGs in the basement of the hospital were there because some wounded Hamas soldier came in to treat his injuries and he brought his rocket launcher along. Give me a fucking break. An RPG in the basement of a hospital is not enough to justify the destruction of that hospital. The systematic destruction of the Gazan healthcare system are breaches of the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law. They are war crimes. Atrocities. Give me a fucking break. > [@Babale](#): > > You’re clearly not interested in any evidence that Israel has just cause to operate in Gaza, because you’ve made your mind up about it being a genocide before the war even started. You’re not operating in a reality based paradigm, so arguing with you or providing evidence to you is a waste of time. We can go back and read my posts from the start. I’ve been all over the evidence. I didn’t post in threads on Gaza because I did think Israel had just cause to operate in Gaza. What changed my mind was the evidence. At this stage the evidence is overwhelming. In all of the posts you’ve made here today you’ve bought zero evidence to the table. I’ve provided citations for every single thing I’ve claimed. If after seven months I can be bothered to keep providing evidence knowing full well that you will ignore it, then you can do the same as well. Because it isn’t just me and you in this conversation. You’ve got the opportunity to prove your case. To defend this war. If the evidence for your position is so overwhelming, then share it already. > [@Babale](#): > > If you honestly think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, I guess I have nothing else to say to you. You can cope and seethe for the next couple of months until the dust settles and it becomes obvious that the Gazans aren’t going anywhere. I’ve said all along there will be three outcomes here: firstly, Gazans manage to escape. Secondly, they don’t escape and have to live under brutal occupation of Israel for the rest of their lives. Thirdly: they die. So for the Gazans that “aren’t going anywhere” it means a life under brutal occupation, their lands stolen, forever under threat of being disappeared or killed by the Israeli regime. So lets for starters be clear on what “aren’t going anywhere” actually means. It doesn’t mean a “free Gaza.” It doesn’t mean a “free Palestine.” What’s going on in the West Bank right now shows where this is going. The many many documented statements from Israeli officials tells us exactly what it is that they want. I won’t be “coping and seething.” You have successfully radicalised me. I’m getting old and I can’t even get out of the house any more. But I’ll do everything I can to help the Palestinian cause. That will probably mean fighting my own government to allow more Palestinian refugees into my country, then supporting them once they get here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=31)