# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/741 "2024-05-29T15:48:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m asking for evidence to show that Hamas had compromised the _entire_ civilian infrastructure to its own benefit. A Wikipedia article that is mostly historical context isn’t that. Not at all. > > Israel has had _seven months_ to document the extent that Hamas has “compromised the entire civilian infrastructure.” They haven’t done it because they can’t. [Yes they can, Inside the tunnels of Gaza](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It certainly isn’t the general consensus for the UN, and this isn’t how the ICC actually works. But you’ve been told this already. Many, many times. So I guess you are just trolling now. The UN secretary General hasn’t said its a genocide because it isnt a genocide. The ICC would have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to declare it a genocide if it was a genocide. You’ve told me many many times and I still don’t believe your hyperbole. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because, you know, these aren’t just a bunch of randos on the internet. > > Here’s Raz Segal, an Israeli historian residing in the United States who is Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide. 80% of the Herero were killed, less than 1% of the Gaza population have died, him saying the Palestinians are suffering Genocide is dishonest. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You can respectfully disagree as much as you like, but claiming they’ve “jumped on the genocide bandwagon” is a dick move. No it’s not because its cheapening the real devastating consequences of genocide in action against the Yazidis, and puts them in the same category as the Gazans, who suffered far less than their Yazidi counterparts, you don’t see Gazan women carted off to be sex slaves by the IDF, their children forcibly converted to Judaism or the male population killed off en masse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/742 "2024-05-29T16:02:50Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The point I’m making is that Hamas doesn’t operate in a vacuum, there has to be some measure of popular support for them to have such a hold on the population, just like Germans when the Nazis were in charge, and I find it jarring that Hamas can literally rape and butcher civilians without much pushback, yet Israel taking the fight back to Hamas own territory is met with outrage. Hamas started the war, not Israel. Not necessarily, at least not in the same way. I see it more like Somalia, with Hamas as the reigning set of warlords. It’s more that they have the most guns and most trained killers. Any sort of polling in the midst of this carnage is as meaningless as asking a grieving parent if the suspect in their child’s murder deserves to be tortured to death. That Hamas is a death cult and perpetrated mass rape and murder doesn’t give the IDF license to destroy Gaza, and especially not to do so with such incompetence, essentially strengthening Hamas, with absolutely no thought or plan for the future. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/743 "2024-05-29T16:11:37Z")
The question is what will happen once Hamas has been knocked down. The only way to knock it _out_ is to replace it. Netanyahu doesn’t have a plan for this second stage; I hope his war cabinet either forces him to implement one or (at this point the preferable option) topples the government. To me, this is the only real question. Sadly, I have little hope that there will be a substantive change in the Israeli government or policy to get to that next stage. And that is the origin of much of my protesting against Israel’s current actions in Gaza. If there is no practicable plan for what comes after defeating Hamas, then all of the current killing and destruction is truly meaningless. If the destruction of Hamas now only leads to the creation of Hamas 2.0, and the next round of fighting in a few years, then Israel may as well stop the killing now and save their ammo for the next war. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/744 "2024-05-29T16:14:32Z")
Dude they can read the room and actually build upon that initial 98% rather than receiving 0% for another 50 years How about the Palestinian leadership try and not make perfect the enemy of good ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/745 "2024-05-29T16:16:45Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > To me, this is the only real question. Sadly, I have little hope that there will be a substantive change in the Israeli government or policy to get to that next stage. And that is the origin of much of my protesting against Israel’s current actions in Gaza. If there is no practicable plan for what comes after defeating Hamas, then all of the current killing and destruction is truly meaningless. If the destruction of Hamas now only leads to the creation of Hamas 2.0, and the next round of fighting in a few years, then Israel may as well stop the killing now and save their ammo for the next war. Well, if you want to bolster the right wing in Israel, I can’t think of a better way to do it than to show Israelis that people in the West support Hamas’ maximalist demands like “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea”. Despite the college protestors’ best efforts, I remain hopeful that Netanyahu’s days in office are numbered. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/746 "2024-05-29T16:17:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not necessarily, at least not in the same way. I see it more like Somalia, with Hamas as the reigning set of warlords. It’s more that they have the most guns and most trained killers. Any sort of polling in the midst of this carnage is as meaningless as asking a grieving parent if the suspect in their child’s murder deserves to be tortured to death. They won the legislative elections in 2006 and since then consolidated their position, there is some ground of support for their hardliners Islamist government in Gaza. As for Somalia example, no they’re not like some warlord with the most guns, they’re ideologues on a par with Al Shabab. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/747 "2024-05-29T16:19:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That Hamas is a death cult and perpetrated mass rape and murder doesn’t give the IDF license to destroy Gaza, and especially not to do so with such incompetence, essentially strengthening Hamas, with absolutely no thought or plan for the future. Hamas after October 7th has proven to be an intolerable threat to the Israeli population, maybe they should have thought about that before launching that attack, they’ve now given the Israeli government Carte Blanche to do what’s necessary to destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/748 "2024-05-29T16:31:54Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > they’ve now given the Israeli government Carte Blanche to do what’s necessary to destroy them I certainly wouldn’t say that Israel has _carte blanche_ to do as it wishes in Gaza. It should still do whatever it can to avoid civilian casualties. What we should _not_ do is pretend that it is possible to strike at Hamas without hitting civilians - Hamas operates in ways designed specifically to ensure that it isn’t - nor should we grant Hamas immunity from reprisal so long as they can find some civilians to hide behind. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/749 "2024-05-29T16:34:23Z")
OK, let’s say that Bibsy is out - who is next? Are they any better or worse than Netanyahu, and what is their plan for Palestine? I can see a world where Netanyahu is out, but there aren’t any real changes. Similar, I may add, to I can see a world where Trump is unelectable, but the Republican party continues to parrot his policies. Particularly as the population of ultra-orthodox, ultra conservative Israelis is growing. I will also add that I appreciate that it takes both sides to make something work, but I am looking towards Israel to start that discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/750 "2024-05-29T16:41:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Dude they can read the room and actually build upon that initial 98% rather than receiving 0% for another 50 years > > How about the Palestinian leadership try and not make perfect the enemy of good OK this is the last time I’m going to repeat myself. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Do I think Palestinian leaders should take what they can get from the obviously more powerful Isreal? Yes. Does the fact that they disagree with me mean they would never accept anything other than wiping Israel off the map? No. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Sorry to be a broken record, but I’m not passing any judgments on whether Israel is in the right or wrong for not offering a full disengagement from the West Bank. > > I’m saying people who criticize Palestinians for not accepting the 67 borders are wrong, because they aren’t offered the 67 borders. If you want to criticize them for not accepting a deal where some level of occupation in the West Bank occurs east of the 67 borders, criticize them for that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/751 "2024-05-29T16:53:43Z")
But they’re not doing what’s necessary. They’re fumbling around like the Keystone Cops with high explosives, killing thousands and accomplishing virtually nothing positive. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/752 "2024-05-29T17:26:52Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > OK, let’s say that Bibsy is out - who is next? Are they any better or worse than Netanyahu, and what is their plan for Palestine? Netanyahu’s most likely replacement by far is Benny Gantz. Personally, I really like Yair Golan, who just smashed the Labor primary with 95% of the vote and who is trying to rally the Israeli left and make up for the losses in popularity they’ve suffered since peace talks failed and the Second Intifada blew up in their face. > **[Ex-general Yair Golan sweeps Labor Party election, vows to rally Israel's...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-28/ty-article/.premium/ex-general-yair-golan-clinches-labor-party-election-vows-to-rally-israels-fractured-left/0000018f-c047-dade-adef-ecefdf300000)** > > \*\*\* I hope he can get enough of the vote that his party (Labor now, but he has been part of other Left leaning parties and brought some of them in with him, so this could be a sort of new Labor party that unifies a fractured left) is a major part of the next coalition, rather than being stuck in the opposition. Hoping for him to be Prime Minister as of the next election is probably too optimistic, though. Regardless, both Gantz and Gallant (the two ministers in Netanyahu’s cabinet) are fracturing with Netanyahu specifically over what to do after the war. Here’s what Gantz has demanded by June 8: > [@](#): > > Gantz demanded that a plan to realize six strategic goals must be approved by June 8: the return of the hostages from Gaza; the overthrow of Hamas rule and demilitarization in Gaza; **the establishment of a joint U.S., European, Arab, and Palestinian administration that will manage Gaza’s civilian affairs and form the basis for a future alternative governing authority** ; the repatriation of residents of north Israel who were evacuated from their homes, as well as the rehabilitation of Gaza border communities; **the promotion of normalization with Saudi Arabia** ; and the adoption of an outline for military service for all Israeli citizens. > **[Gantz demands post-war Gaza plan by June 8, or he will quit Netanyahu gov't](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-18/ty-article/.premium/gantz-demands-post-war-gaza-plan-by-june-8-or-he-will-quit-netanyahu-govt/0000018f-8d03-ded1-a7df-dd5319040000)** > > \*\*\* The emphasized bits tell you what Gantz wants: to cooperate with the American led plan, of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia while building a coalition of Arab and European forces to manage Gaza temporarily, with the end goal being the establishment of a civilian government. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/753 "2024-05-29T17:41:04Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Well if Israel claims it, it must be true. Because somehow a match or even just sparks from a vehicle dragging chains along the road can ignite a fire that burns down a whole forest, but two thirty-five pound bombs couldn’t possibly cause a fire to burn down tents in a tightly packed encampment. No siree, just no way. > > Give me a fucking break. [https://x.com/AviBittMD/status/1795689411750879685](https://x.com/AviBittMD/status/1795689411750879685) > [@](#): > > But so far the forensic evidence emerging does appear to corroborate the IDF’s story, unlike certain pundits who said it had to have been an unguided large (2000 lb?) bomb or something. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/q9RAZxNdCk8/maxresdefault.jpg "Curb your enthusiasm - Credits + Theme Song") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9RAZxNdCk8) ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/754 "2024-05-29T18:47:28Z")
Holy shit, a skin doctor offering to debate RFK Jr. on Joe Rogan’s show says so, too? > Warden of the open air prisons. Zionist. Colonialist. Imperialist. Oppressor olympics champion. Genocide flavored Starbucks. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/755 "2024-05-29T18:57:50Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Holy shit, a skin doctor offering to debate RFK Jr. on Joe Rogan’s show says so, too? You can argue with the CNN link he cites instead. > **[US-made munitions used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/28/middleeast/gaza-us-munitions-rafah-strike-analysis-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > Munitions made in the United States were used in the deadly Israeli strike on a displacement camp in Rafah on Sunday, a CNN analysis of video from the scene and a review by explosive weapons experts has found. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Warden of the open air prisons. Zionist. Colonialist. Imperialist. Oppressor olympics champion. Genocide flavored Starbucks. LOL, I didn’t see that before, but that’s pretty funny. A good summary of the Buzzword Bingo the ProHamas side likes to play. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/756 "2024-05-29T19:02:00Z")
So…why not link the CNN article instead of that asshat? Oh look, everyone who disagrees with Israel’s actions supports Hamas! Does repeating obvious bullshit ever get tiring? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/757 "2024-05-29T19:05:51Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Oh look, everyone who disagrees with Israel’s actions supports Hamas! No, not everyone. Just the people repeating Hamas buzzwords specifically chosen to invalidate the very idea of a Jewish state in Israel, like “settler colonialism” or “imperialism”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/758 "2024-05-29T19:06:13Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Oh look, everyone who disagrees with Israel’s actions supports Hamas! Does repeating obvious bullshit ever get tiring? Indeed. It’s deeply dishonest, and demonstrates that @Babale is fundamentally unwilling to understand what Israel’s critics are saying. We’re all either pro-Hamas, or useful idiots; there’s no room for principled, thoughtful condemnation of Israel’s military approach. On this subject, I’ve learned that Babale is not rational. I hope that changes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/759 "2024-05-29T19:07:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We’re all either pro-Hamas, or useful idiots; there’s no room for principled, thoughtful condemnation of Israel’s military approach. Of _course_ there is. Some of it is in this very thread. It just doesn’t come from Tankies screaming about settler colonialism or genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/760 "2024-05-29T19:09:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The emphasized bits tell you what Gantz wants: to cooperate with the American led plan, of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia while building a coalition of Arab and European forces to manage Gaza temporarily, with the end goal being the establishment of a civilian government. Oh, good, another multi-decade peace keeping mission for the US to fail at. We _just_ got out of Afghanistan after twenty years of not making any real difference, but I’m sure _this_ time it’ll be different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=39)