# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/761 "2024-05-29T19:10:11Z")
I started off deeply skeptical of claims about genocide. Israel’s actions over the last seven months have persuaded me that I was wrong. And while I think “colonialism” is the wrong description, it’s because colonialism is mostly a useful term to describe specific actions taken by specific European powers in the sixteenth through early twentieth centuries, and the more removed you get from those specific actions, the less it works as a descriptor. Its use as a metaphor is fundamentally flawed, but that doesn’t mean that other actions (such as Israel’s actions in Israel and Palestine) are ethical. The use of the word “tankies” is stupid in this context: it’s an even worse analogy than “colonialists.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/762 "2024-05-29T19:31:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I started off deeply skeptical of claims about genocide. Israel’s actions over the last seven months have persuaded me that I was wrong And this is what baffles me. I think you’re a pretty smart guy, and I honestly have no clue how you arrive at this conclusion. It doesn’t make sense to me. What _does_ make sense to me are the Palestinian hardliners who believe that Israel’s very existence is a horrible crime because the whole land is Palestine and always has been, and so anywhere Israel is is automatically ethnic cleansing and genocide. I _disagree_ with those people; I _think they are wrong_; but I can follow their logic. Yours, I simply cannot. The last seven months have convinced you that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people? Even the Gazan people specifically? WTF? If that was what Israel wanted, wouldn’t they _take steps to make that happen_? Why would Israel spend enormous effort to get civilians out of the areas of heavy fighting? Why would Israel warn civilians before striking targets, even at the cost of military effectiveness? It’s honestly and genuinely baffling to me. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The use of the word “tankies” is stupid in this context: it’s an even worse analogy than “colonialists.” I did a bunch of research over the last couple weeks, because I was curious about the ideological backing for the protest movement. I read Students for Justice in Palestine newsletters, I read statements by professors who back them like Judith Butler, and I read articles and (parts of) books by Ilan Pappe and Norman Finklestein. (Perhaps that is worthy of another thread - _What IS the cause of the Pro Palestinian Protestors?_) And I’m sorry if I’m being dismissive, but my takeaway from all of that was “West = Imperialist! Imperialist BAD! Zionism = West = Imperialism! Zionism = Bad!”. Hence, Tankies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/763 "2024-05-29T20:06:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The last seven months have convinced you that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people? Even the Gazan people specifically? WTF? From my understanding, this is not a requirement for genocide. If some portion of the IDF is either in favor of, or ambivalent to, either killing all Gazans, or pushing all Gazans out of Gaza, and some of them are taking action with this in mind, that would be enough for a risk of genocide. Remember that the point of recognizing a genocide in progress isn’t to just record facts of history but to _stop any actions contributing to (and/or prevent) a genocide_. Definitions are purposefully loose and hazy to make sure potential genocides can be recognized and stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/764 "2024-05-29T20:11:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The point I’m making is that Hamas doesn’t operate in a vacuum, there has to be some measure of popular support for them to have such a hold on the population, So the Palestinian civilians are fully culpable for the actions of Hamas, so that they should suffer the same punishment. Also the goal of the war is to eliminate Hamas… Please reconcile those beliefs in a way that doesn’t sound genocidy, I’ll wait here. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I find it jarring that Hamas can literally rape and butcher civilians without much pushback From whom? Certainly not anyone in this thread who have all repeatedly said they that what Hamas did was an atrocity. That doesn’t mean that Israel gets to commit its own atrocity in return, much less thirty. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/765 "2024-05-29T20:25:42Z")
I would say that you are focusing too much on the small number of people who are getting in front of microphones and cameras. At this point there are people protesting the war on several levels, including but not limited to: Pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli war effort, and opposed to war in general. Thinking that everyone protesting the war is a tankie is like thinking that everyone who protested against Vietnam was a Commie. There were plenty of moms who didn’t want their sons to get killed in a rice patty for nothing. And right now, there are plenty of people who don’t want to see Palestinians killed for no apparent reason. Please don’t take that last sentence as an invitation to relitigate the past 70 years of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You may not like the fact that millions of Americans currently see Israel as the bad guy here, but they do. And for a lot of them, neither anti-Semitism, nor pro-Palestinianism is the root reason. They are just tired of seeing people getting bombed and starved to death and want it to stop. You can call that simplistic and naive, or any other term you want to use. But it doesn’t change the fact that it is a reality. You can also throw up your arms and say, well who needs you anyway. Which is also fine, for now at least. In reality, Israel doesn’t need the US’s support in Gaza. However, I think that is placing way too much focus on the current war, and not the longer term. As I mentioned before, I believe what happens after the shooting stops in Gaza is far more important than the current conflict. Similarly, Israel’s long-term role as a US ally could well be more important than whatever debating points are scored while the bullets still fly. For fifty years, the US has supported Israel, but now there are millions of young Americans who previously didn’t have a strong stance that now don’t like what Israel is doing. That could all blow over, particularly if a real solution comes out of this. Or it could be the beginning of a sea change in how America views Israel. No longer a valued ally, but a regional bully who constantly creates messes we get dragged into. All of which you likely find incredibly unfair, but as the great sage Will Munny once said, “deserves got nothing to do with it.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/766 "2024-05-29T20:27:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If some portion of the IDF is either in favor of, or ambivalent to, either killing all Gazans, or pushing all Gazans out of Gaza, and some of them are taking action with this in mind, that would be enough for a risk of genocide. Remember that the point of recognizing a genocide in progress isn’t to just record facts of history but to _stop any actions contributing to (and/or prevent) a genocide_. Definitions are purposefully loose and hazy to make sure potential genocides can be recognized and stopped. So, if at least one IDF soldier named Racist Schmulik wouldn’t care much if the Gazans all left Gaza, and had that thought in mind when taking at least some actions, this would qualify as a risk of genocide, and we should recognize it as such? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/767 "2024-05-29T20:31:50Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Thinking that everyone protesting the war is a tankie is like thinking that everyone who protested against Vietnam was a Commie. I _don’t_ think that. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > In reality, Israel doesn’t need the US’s support in Gaza. However, I think that is placing way too much focus on the current war, and not the longer term. As I mentioned before, I believe what happens after the shooting stops in Gaza is far more important than the current conflict. Similarly, Israel’s long-term role as a US ally could well be more important than whatever debating points are scored while the bullets still fly. I agree with literally all of this. Here’s a really fantastic tweet from a non-Tankie Pro Palestinian who I agree with on a great many things. [https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1786181045890744602](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1786181045890744602) > [@](#): > > 1. There was no room or space for meaningful discussions, engagement, and exploring the building of a sustainable, broad movement with realistic and articulable goals, strategies, tactics, and sophisticated messaging. The slogans, goals, and ethos are based on maximalist, zero-sum aspirations that will never achieve anything for the Palestinian cause. It was clear that a small group of students and organizations developed their platform, and subsequently, the masses are being herded into following it, seemingly mindlessly and without a deep understanding of Gaza, Hamas, Israel, foreign policy, and all the relevant issues. 4. I stand by my assessment that at the current rate and trajectory, this historic opportunity will be squandered and will fail to harness unprecedented empathy for the Palestinian people to fuel actual change and achieve justice, freedom, and peace for the just and urgent Palestinian cause. 5. Most students are sincere and absolutely have their hearts in the right place. They are, however, misguided and are being led by extreme, radical, and genuinely detrimental organizations, voices, and “revolutionary” types who are the worst possible allies and spokespeople for the Palestinian people. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/768 "2024-05-29T20:32:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Just the people repeating Hamas buzzwords specifically chosen to invalidate the very idea of a Jewish state in Israel, like “settler colonialism” or “imperialism”. Fuck. You. I know motherfucking colonialism when I see it, I never needed Hamas to point it out to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/769 "2024-05-29T20:49:10Z")
Somewhere between one soldier and all of them lies the threshold. It’s not at all clear to me that this threshold isn’t being met, and if there’s even a 5% chance that we’re seeing a genocide in progress then that’s more than enough to be extremely worried about it. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/770 "2024-05-29T20:59:19Z")
I will just add that I think that perhaps you, and the person you are quoting, are too focused on the student protestors. LBJ didn’t care about the student protests, but when he knew he had lost Walter Cronkite he knew he was screwed. My college aged daughter never attended a single protest or said a thing about any river to any sea. She did however ask for people to make donations to UNICEF for Gaza for her birthday because she was horrified by what she has been seeing. Debating extreme, radical, and revolutionary types is easy, and let’s face it, can be fun. On the other hand, justifying the killing of tens of thousands of civilians to someone who just wants the killing to stop, and really doesn’t care who started it or why, is a losing proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/771 "2024-05-29T21:07:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Somewhere between one soldier and all of them lies the threshold. Well, I’m sure there’s more than one Racist Schmulik, just like I’m sure the US Invasion of Iraq had more than one Racist Bubba who wouldn’t care one iota if all the Iraqis died or were displaced. But I think calling either a genocide is a big stretch. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > My college aged daughter never attended a single protest or said a thing about any river to any sea. She did however ask for people to make donations to UNICEF for Gaza for her birthday because she was horrified by what she has been seeing. Maybe you are right, but why would I argue with people who don’t call me a genocider or act like I have no right to live in my ancestral homeland? I have no problem with actual aid organizations or with people who want peace. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > On the other hand, justifying the killing of tens of thousands of civilians to someone who just wants the killing to stop, and really doesn’t care who started it or why, is a losing proposition. I want the killing to stop, too. Not just for a day, or a week, or a month; I want it to stop for good, and for Palestine to be a real country where people can prosper, rather than a place that shoots rockets at my home country and is occupied by Israel while chewing up both Israeli and Palestinian lives. And the _only_ way that happens is a two state solution. Which will _never_ happen while Hamas is in control. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/772 "2024-05-29T21:17:49Z")
Well, that is just it. You don’t need to argue with the people who aren’t calling you a genocider, or who genuinely want peace. But at the moment, a lot of those people who genuinely want peace are currently anti-Israel. You can spend all of your time arguing with the small percentage of radical people who you will never change the opinion of, or you can have reasonable conversations with the millions of people who now view Israel as evil, but may be convinced to rebuild, or create for the first time a level of value and trust with the Israeli people. How much time have you spent on this site in the past few months going around and around with a handful of people whose opinions you will never change? And how much time have you spent having productive discussions? A lasting solution will come out of productive discussions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/773 "2024-05-29T21:23:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well, I’m sure there’s more than one Racist Schmulik, just like I’m sure the US Invasion of Iraq had more than one Racist Bubba who wouldn’t care one iota if all the Iraqis died or were displaced. But I think calling either a genocide is a big stretch. Like the 2nd Iraq invasion, it appears to me that this is an incompetent and poorly planned operation that is accomplishing little more than carnage. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/774 "2024-05-29T22:03:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Like the 2nd Iraq invasion, it appears to me that this is an incompetent and poorly planned operation that is accomplishing little more than carnage This is _exactly_ what I find so frustrating about this whole discussion. This is a sentiment that I, in some ways, agree with. We could absolutely have a deep discussion about things the IDF is doing that are not working, or ways it is screwing up, and compare that to ways it is doing well. Why did evacutating civilians from Rafah go so much better than the evacuations earlier in the war, for example? Are there lessons to learn from this going forward? But all of that sort of discussion gets absolutely shut down by bullshit genocide accusations. In a way, it’s a lot like a microcosm of the larger issue with a peace deal. Maximalist rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/775 "2024-05-29T22:07:49Z")
No (normal) two-state solution may be Hamas policy, but isn’t it also official Israeli policy? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/776 "2024-05-29T22:13:00Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes they can, Inside the tunnels of Gaza …I asked for evidence to show that Hamas had compromised the entire civilian infrastructure to its own benefit. And you show me a bunch of _cartoons_? Hamas claimed they’ve built 500km of tunnels, and you simply believe them? The actual text talks about perhaps 5km of tunnels, if that. There is a graphic that is clearly labelled “not to scale” which suggests that its a misrepresentation. A handful of photos of an empty tunnel, another of what we’ve already seen of Al Shifa. And the rest is just _illustrations_. An artists representation of what they imagine the tunnels look like. There are claims of 1500 tunnels discovered at the time the article was published. Yet, excluding Al Shifa, they only show one? They can’t even find a single tunnel shaft with climbing bars at the same scale as the illustration that takes several screens to scroll down? Seven months of war. Claims of 500km of tunnels, claims of 1500 tunnels found, and all you’ve got for it is a couple of photos and a bunch of illustrations? IDF soldiers running around posting TikToks every single day documenting countless atrocities, but no tunnels? We are talking about the systematic destruction of most of the significant infrastructure in the country. You’ve got to do better than this if you don’t want to get accused of multiple warcrimes. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The UN secretary General hasn’t said its a genocide because it isnt a genocide. The ICC would have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to declare it a genocide if it was a genocide. You’ve told me many many times and I still don’t believe your hyperbole. So trolling it is. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > less than 1% of the Gaza population have died, This has never been how genocide has been determined, and _you know this_. And randomly throwing in other atrocities doesn’t diminish this one. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it’s not because its cheapening the real devastating consequences of genocide in action against the Yazidis, Bullshit. It isn’t a fucking competition. It doesn’t cheapen anything at all. There isn’t a “genocide league table.” It isn’t actual survivors that are running around complaining that the focus on Gaza cheapened what happened to them. Instead, they largely stand in solidarity. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > you don’t see Gazan women carted off to be sex slaves by the IDF, > [@guardian](#): > > UN experts say they have seen “credible allegations” that Palestinian women and girls have been subjected to sexual assaults, including rape, while in Israeli detention, and are calling for a full investigation. > > The [panel of experts said there was evidence](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) of a least two cases of rape, alongside other cases of sexual humiliation and threats of rape. Reem Alsalem, the UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, said the true extent of sexual violence could be significantly higher. > > “We might not know for a long time what the actual number of victims are,” said Alsalem, who was appointed special rapporteur by the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) in 2021. > **[Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says)** > > Experts report evidence of rape, sexual humiliation and threats of rape against girls and women > [@](#): > > In new testimonies documented by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, female Palestinian detainees from the Gaza Strip report being subjected to sexual violence, torture, inhuman treatment, strip searches, sexual harassment, and rape threats while being arrested and held by Israeli army forces. > > According to the testimonies of female detainees who were recently released following various periods of detention, they endured severe treatment that amounts to torture, including beatings, threats of rape if they disobeyed orders, forced nudity, strip searches in front of male soldiers, and verbal harassment. Members of the Israeli army not only robbed them of any money and belongings they had at the time of their arrest, but tied the detainees up, blindfolded them for extended periods of time, held them in cages amid freezing weather, and denied them access to food, medicine, essential medical care, and menstrual products. Israeli forces also continuously threatened them with losing the ability to see their children. > **[In testimonies to Euro-Med Monitor, women from Gaza report being subjected to...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/testimonies-euro-med-monitor-women-gaza-report-being-subjected-sexual-violence-torture-israeli-forces-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Gender and Protection and Human Rights; published on 27 Feb 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor > [@](#): > > “I was sexually harassed,” he said, adding he also witnessed guards sodomize his cellmates with truncheons. NBC News has not been able to corroborate his allegations. > > Prisoners were regularly stripped naked and piled on top of each other for the guards’ amusement, he said. “They were happy, enjoying what they were doing to us,” he said, adding that none of the abuse seemed aimed at extracting information or a confession. > **[Torture allegations spiked in Israeli jails after Oct. 7, as one group warns...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-prisoners-allegations-abuse-beatings-torture-rcna134280)** > > “Our life became zero. We didn’t mean anything to them,” one former inmate told NBC News. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > their children forcibly converted to Judaism > [@](#): > > Israeli forces are holding 61 Palestinian children in administrative detention as of March 31, according to information shared by the Israel Prison Service. This is a record number since DCIP began [monitoring](https://www.dci-palestine.org/children_in_israeli_administrative_detention) child administrative detainees in 2008. At least half of these children were detained after October 7, 2023, as Israeli forces escalated military operations throughout the occupied West Bank. > > “Detaining children indefinitely, without charge or trial, amounts to arbitrary detention,” said Ayed Abu Eqtaish, accountability program director at DCIP. “Since October 7, Israeli forces have accelerated their arrest campaigns against Palestinian children and detained a record number of children without charge.” > **[Israeli forces detain record number of Palestinian children without charge](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_detain_record_number_of_palestinian_children_without_charge)** > > Israeli forces are detaining a record number of Palestinian children without charge or trial. > [@](#): > > Around 500 to 700 Palestinian children, some as young as 12, are arrested, detained and prosecuted in the Israeli military detention system each year. The majority of Palestinian child detainees are charged with throwing stones. In addition to physical and psychological abuse during arrest and detention, Palestinian child detainees are overwhelmingly denied bail and routinely held in pretrial custodial detention for up to several months. [Israeli forces physically assault and strangle 14-year-old Palestinian child detainee | Defense for Children Palestine](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_physically_assault_and_strangle_14_year_old_palestinian_child_detainee#:~:text=Around%20500%20to%20700%20Palestinian,are%20charged%20with%20throwing%20stones). > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > or the male population killed off en masse. > [@](#): > > One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — **just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male.** > **[‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/)** > > The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal. It isn’t a fucking competition. The specifics don’t match. Because _they don’t fucking have too_. That isn’t how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/777 "2024-05-30T12:24:12Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So the Palestinian civilians are fully culpable for the actions of Hamas, so that they should suffer the same punishment. Also the goal of the war is to eliminate Hamas… > > Please reconcile those beliefs in a way that doesn’t sound genocidy, I’ll wait here. You’re the kind of person who would say let’s not bomb ISIS controlled Iraq and Syria because their might be civilian casualties in Raqqa. Israel didn’t initiate this current conflict, Hamas with the backing of the Palestinian population in Gaza did. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > From whom? Certainly not anyone in this thread who have all repeatedly said they that what Hamas did was an atrocity. That doesn’t mean that Israel gets to commit its own atrocity in return, much less thirty. From the omission of their culpability by layering it with repeated accusations of Israel comitting genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/778 "2024-05-30T12:26:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t a fucking competition. The specifics don’t match. Because _they don’t fucking have too_. That isn’t how it works. None of which you quoted remotely equates to genocide, I happened to actually cite a real genocide which happened less than ten years ago which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/779 "2024-05-30T12:35:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I asked for evidence to show that Hamas had compromised the entire civilian infrastructure to its own benefit. > > And you show me a bunch of _cartoons_? > > Hamas claimed they’ve built 500km of tunnels, and you simply believe them? > > The actual text talks about perhaps 5km of tunnels, if that. There is a graphic that is clearly labelled “not to scale” which suggests that its a misrepresentation. A handful of photos of an empty tunnel, another of what we’ve already seen of Al Shifa. > > And the rest is just _illustrations_. An artists representation of what they imagine the tunnels look like. > > There are claims of 1500 tunnels discovered at the time the article was published. Yet, excluding Al Shifa, they only show one? They can’t even find a single tunnel shaft with climbing bars at the same scale as the illustration that takes several screens to scroll down? Are you for fuckin’ real? It’s a _Reuters_ article which goes into avid description of the way in which tunnel infrastructure has been established through out Gaza. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So trolling it is. I don’t need to troll to prove you’re wrong > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This has never been how genocide has been determined, and _you know this_. And randomly throwing in other atrocities doesn’t diminish this one. Random atrocities lol, the Yazidi genocide happened less than ten years ago in the same region by an organisation which follows similar tenets to Hamas. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Bullshit. It isn’t a fucking competition. It doesn’t cheapen anything at all. There isn’t a “genocide league table.” It isn’t actual survivors that are running around complaining that the focus on Gaza cheapened what happened to them. Instead, they largely stand in solidarity. No it cheapens the terminology by stating that lots of people getting killed = genocide without actual evidence of a deliberate and sustained strategy of Genocidal intent, for example, the Yazidis, which is why I brought it up in the first place. > [@guardian](#): > > UN experts say they have seen “credible allegations” that Palestinian women and girls have been subjected to sexual assaults, including rape, while in Israeli detention, and are calling for a full investigation. Not held in an underground bunker or murdered outright after they’ve dealt with them after burning down Sderot, also funny how you said its not a competition yet pull this out immediately as if to put the IDF on a par with Hamas, pathetic. You forgot none of the children in Gaza were kidnapped and forcibly converted to Judaism, like the Yazidis were, you know, a real genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/780 "2024-05-30T12:47:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > or useful idiots Not all, just most [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=40)