# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/61 "2023-11-07T04:18:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’ve shared my opinion in the other thread. Both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are occupied territories. Fill in the blank: Gaza is lawfully the territory of the state of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/62 "2023-11-07T04:20:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Fill in the blank: Gaza is the legal territory of the state of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. …I’m not your fucking monkey. I’ve answered your question. I don’t know where you are going with this, and I don’t particularly feel like getting set up by whatever rhetorical trap you are trying to set. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/63 "2023-11-07T04:28:22Z")
An article: > **[Israel claims it is no longer occupying the Gaza Strip. What does...](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/)** > > The laws of occupation codify a basic principle of humanity: those with effective control over a population have obligations to protect it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/64 "2023-11-07T04:30:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But they aren’t critical because “I’ve just accepted what anyone else has told me.” That’s _exactly_ why you’re critical of Israel. Just like your opposition to nuclear power in the Fukushina thread. You self righteously echo what your bad sources tell you. I think you’re a good person, but correcting your many misconceptions is just not fucking worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/65 "2023-11-07T04:33:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You self righteously echo what your bad sources tell you. Pot. Kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/66 "2023-11-07T04:45:57Z")
👍 😀 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/67 "2023-11-07T05:08:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m not your fucking monkey. I’ve answered your question. For someone who purports to have beliefs, you sure seem to be having a hard time stating any of them. Here. I’ll go first! I believe that Gaza is a sovereign state unto itself. You haven’t made any such statement. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I don’t know where you are going with this, Simple - the claim that Israel is illegally occupying Gaza falls apart when you ask the question of who Gaza belongs to and whose territorial rights Israel is supposedly violating. Is Gaza part of Egypt? Then Hamas are the ones illegally occupying Egypt’s territory and Israel is doing them a favor by getting rid of them. Is Gaza sovereign? Then Hamas is the sovereign government of Gaza, and Israel is at war with Hamas, and in war it is legal to occupy enemy territory. Is Gaza part of Israel? Then there is no occupation because the notion of a state occupying itself is paradoxical. Is Gaza not part of any state? Then Israel is not violating anyone’s territorial rights, because terra nullius is up for grabs unless protected by treaty a la Antarctica. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/68 "2023-11-07T05:09:55Z")
If Gaza is not part of any state (except Israel???), then it truly is an apartheid regime. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/69 "2023-11-07T05:12:12Z")
If Gaza is part of Israel, then the claim that Israel is an apartheid state would be somewhat stronger (but still false, since Israeli Arabs are not similarly discriminated against). I do not hold that it is unless in the future a duly elected and responsible Gazan government chooses to federate with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/70 "2023-11-07T05:16:16Z")
Okay, so… it’s not (by your estimation) a part of Israel. Sounds like an occupation, no? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/71 "2023-11-07T05:24:29Z")
Over many years of arguing on these boards, I’d been brought around (chiefly by @Alessan ) to agreeing that Israel did not fully qualify for the “apartheid state” moniker. Seeing how some pro-Israel advocates on this board have been talking about Palestinians (not Hamas, civilian Palestinians) on this board have made me see I was wrong. It _is_ a apartheid state, the Occupied Territories are handled as _worse_ than Bantustans, and several pro-Israel advocates on this board are happy with that state of affairs. Hamas can die in a fire and I wouldn’t piss on them when they do. But the IDF can get fucked for bombing civilians, too. War criminals. On _bOtH sIdEs_ (®Babale) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/72 "2023-11-07T05:25:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > but still false, since Israeli Arabs are not similarly discriminated against All PoCs were not equally discriminated against in Apartheid South Africa, also. It’s very _useful_ for an apartheid state to have model minorities to point towards, to justify their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/73 "2023-11-07T05:27:37Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Sounds like an occupation, no? An occupation? Yes. An illegal occupation? No. Prior to the beginning of the current conflict Gaza had not been occupied since 2006. The current occupation is a lawful result of the state of war between Israel and Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/74 "2023-11-07T05:28:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Israel is at war with Hamas When, exactly, was this war formally declared? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/75 "2023-11-07T05:28:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > (but still false, since Israeli Arabs are not similarly discriminated against). I suggest you read this article: > **[The argument that Israel practices apartheid, explained](https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate)** > > Some human rights groups have reached this conclusion based on how the crime is defined in international law. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/76 "2023-11-07T05:29:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > All PoCs were not equally discriminated against in Apartheid South Africa, also. The number of Israeli Arabs is almost the same as the entire population of Gaza. In what form of “apartheid” is only half of the targeted racial group discriminated against? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/77 "2023-11-07T05:30:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When, exactly, was this war formally declared? October 8, 2023. [Timeline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=solid%20and%20unwavering%22.-,October%208,rule%20over%20the%20Gaza%20Strip). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/78 "2023-11-07T05:31:15Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > suggest you read this article Irrelevant, because as I stated, Gaza is not part of Israel, and not in the wink-and-a-nod way that the Bantustans were “independent” either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/79 "2023-11-07T05:32:29Z")
Arab Israelis are discriminated against _less_. not _not_ discriminated against. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/80 "2023-11-07T05:34:04Z")
Are you fucking joking? So _before_ that, you know, all the rest of the time Israel had control over power, water, borders - that _wasn’t_ occupation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=5)