# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/781 "2024-05-30T13:20:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > None of which you quoted remotely equates to genocide …none of what you quoted remotely equates to genocide, either. On their own. Individually they are atrocities. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I happened to actually cite a real genocide There is a real genocide going on right now in Gaza. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. What the fuck does that mean? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Are you for fuckin’ real? It’s a _Reuters_ article which goes into avid description of the way in which tunnel infrastructure has been established through out Gaza. I’m not disputing the existence of tunnels. I’m asking for evidence to show _that Hamas had compromised the entire civilian infrastructure to its own benefit._ You can’t just bulldoze a hospital without a good reason to do so. You can’t just blow up an apartment block because of a cartoon. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t need to troll to prove you’re wrong You haven’t proven me wrong. And it appears you are just trolling for the LOL’s. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Random atrocities lol, the Yazidi genocide happened less than ten years ago in the same region by an organisation which follows similar tenets to Hamas. Israel have been responsible for more death and destruction than Hamas ever has been, and ever will. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it cheapens the terminology by stating that lots of people getting killed = genocide Strawman. This isn’t a claim that I’ve made. This isn’t a claim anyone of the experts I’ve cited has made. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > without actual evidence of a deliberate and sustained strategy of Genocidal intent, for example, “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others”, SA submission to the ICC, page 59. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > the Yazidis, which is why I brought it up in the first place. If one of the organizations formed in the wake of the Yazidis genocide to prevent future genocides is calling what is going on in Gaza a genocide, that should be good enough for you. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Not held in an underground bunker or murdered outright after they’ve dealt with them after burning down Sderot, also funny how you said its not a competition yet pull this out immediately as if to put the IDF on a par with Hamas, pathetic. Israel have killed more people than Hamas. There are more people being tortured and detained in Israeli custody right now than Hamas. Israel have destroyed more hospitals than Hamas. They’ve killed more women, they’ve killed more children, they’ve destroyed more houses, they’ve blown up more Mosques, they’ve murdered more journalists. They’ve displaced over a million people. There is famine in the north. Spare me your fake outrage. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You forgot none of the children in Gaza were kidnapped and forcibly converted to Judaism, like the Yazidis were, you know, a real genocide? Fuck off you stupid piece of shit. This thread is about Gaza. Keep focused. They are murdering children in Gaza. They are murdering children in the West Bank. Here are the names of the children that we know were killed before the end of February. > **[Know their names: Palestinian children killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza](https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/)** > > One out of every 100 children in Gaza has been killed by Israeli attacks since October 7. Many, many more have been killed. Many, many more will be killed in the next few months. Look at how many died before they even had their first birthday. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/782 "2024-05-30T14:34:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > none of what you quoted remotely equates to genocide, either. On their own. Individually they are atrocities. Yes it does, it’s explicitly stated as such _by the UN_ [ISIL/Da’esh Committed Genocide of Yazidi](https://press.un.org/en/2021/sc14514.doc.htm) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is a real genocide going on right now in Gaza. No there isn’t. Lots of deaths in a concentrated area doesn’t equal genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What the fuck does that mean? Deliberately ignoring real genocides which have happened in the region so that Gaza isn’t fairly compared to what has actually happened. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not disputing the existence of tunnels. > > I’m asking for evidence to show _that Hamas had compromised the entire civilian infrastructure to its own benefit._ You can’t just bulldoze a hospital without a good reason to do so. You can’t just blow up an apartment block because of a cartoon. The article literally fucking shows you _by example_ how Hamas compromised the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, for you to dismiss their illustration of this as ‘Cartoons’ Is a weak attempt to discredit **Reuters** reporting on that very issue. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You haven’t proven me wrong. > > And it appears you are just trolling for the LOL’s. I’ve proven you wrong on multiple occasions I don’t need to troll or have you try and brush off challenges to your misinformation as trolling to highlight that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel have been responsible for more death and destruction than Hamas ever has been, and ever will. Hamas started the war, they suffer the consequences, you don’t feel sorry for the Japanese rampaging/murdering around East Asia when they suddenly get their cities firebombed by the Allies. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Strawman. This isn’t a claim that I’ve made. This isn’t a claim anyone of the experts I’ve cited has made. You’ve just tried to brush off the Yazidi atrocities as not a genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others”, SA submission to the ICC, page 59. A submission isn’t stating it being so, even the ICC chairwoman said as such. [Link](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919) "Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. **She said that, contrary to some reporting, the court did not make a ruling on whether the claim of genocide was plausible,** but it did emphasise in its order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If one of the organizations formed in the wake of the Yazidis genocide to prevent future genocides is calling what is going on in Gaza a genocide, that should be good enough for you. Doesn’t mean they’re right all if the time, case in point above by the head of the ICJ. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel have killed more people than Hamas. There are more people being tortured and detained in Israeli custody right now than Hamas. > > Israel have destroyed more hospitals than Hamas. They’ve killed more women, they’ve killed more children, they’ve destroyed more houses, they’ve blown up more Mosques, they’ve murdered more journalists. They’ve displaced over a million people. There is famine in the north. > > Spare me your fake outrage. Hamas started the war, Hamas raped and murdered and kidnapped thousands of Israeli civilians. The blame lies squarely with them deliberatelysetting up their infrastructure within the civilian population. ISIS occupied Territories were obliterated to kick them out, Mosul was practically destroyed due to ISIS entrenching themselves within the city. Israel has to do the same in Gaza, funny how you forget that when waxing lyrical about how awful the IDF are, when conveniently forgetting why they’re there in the first place. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Fuck off you stupid piece of shit. This thread is about Gaza. Keep focused. They are murdering children in Gaza. They are murdering children in the West Bank. Here are the names of the children that we know were killed before the end of February. Since you’re such an expert on Genocide why do you conveniently forget what happened to the Yazidis? Killing children, tragic as it is, by accident isn’t a genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Many, many more have been killed. Many, many more will be killed in the next few months. Look at how many died before they even had their first birthday. How many do you remember of the Yazidis? ISIS and Hamas share similar tenets of the same Islamist ideology, this being the same Hamas which butchered all those Israeli children purely because they were Jewish. Funny how you don’t care to remember that, something which precipitated this existing conflict by the actions of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/783 "2024-05-30T15:28:45Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Not all, just most To be fair, I’d never call you a useful idiot, unless it turns out you know how to repair lawn mowers or something. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/784 "2024-05-30T17:50:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The last seven months have convinced you that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people? The last seven months have convinced me that significant elements of the IDF–and of Israeli society, and of the American right–want vengeance for October 7, and want to take that vengeance against the Palestinian people as a whole. The last seven months have convinced me that some people with such views are shaping the war’s strategy and major decisions. I’ve seen, over and over, collective blame for October 7, blaming all Palestinians for those atrocities. I’ve seen Israel claiming, over and over, that it was taking extraordinary measures to protect civilians, even while engaging in an extraordinarily deadly campaign that, predictably, is killing tens of thousands of civilians and driving hundreds of thousands of civilians to the brink of famine. I’ve seen nearly every major human rights organization on the planet condemn Israel’s actions as atrocities, and I’ve seen Israel’s defenders dismiss every one of these organizations. Do I think that Israel has an official policy calling for the extermination of the Palestinian people? No. Do I think that they’ve taken actions that effectively and predictably destroy Gaza as a liveable place? Of course. Do I think they could have, and did, predict that their actions would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians? I have no doubt. Do I think that their actions qualify as genocide? On this, I defer to the authorities, who are almost unanimous in calling it genocide. I don’t think you’re seeing the situation clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/785 "2024-05-30T18:18:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The last seven months have convinced me that significant elements of the IDF–and of Israeli society, and of the American right–want vengeance for October 7, and want to take that vengeance against the Palestinian people as a whole. I should add that I’ve also seen the same disheartening shit from the left that you’ve seen–folks who want vengeance for Israel’s policies of the last half-century, and who want to take that vengeance against the Israeli people as a whole. The “I kind of understand where Hamas is coming from” shit that I’ve seen is truly sickening, and I make no excuses for it. As I’ve said before, I’m on the side of people who _don’t_ favor actions that kill civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/786 "2024-05-30T19:55:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The last seven months have convinced me that significant elements of the IDF–and of Israeli society, and of the American right–want vengeance for October 7, and want to take that vengeance against the Palestinian people as a whole. You’re right, this attitude does exist, and it does cause problems. You see this attitude in every war, whether it manifests as Doolitle Raid pilots with the slogan “Payback for Pearl” or as Russian troops raping and pillaging their way across Ukraine in retribution for perceived collaboration with the Nazis. People who want to punish all Palestinians for Oct 7 are disgusting, and politicians like Ben Gvir who call for that sort of thing are doubly so, and extremely destructive. No disagreement there. I have certainly seen that rhetoric from far right politicians like Smotrich and Ben Gvir. I’ve seen claims of it levied against people like Netanyahu or Herzog, but I haven’t agreed with those translations; to be charitable, I think they were full of shit. And I certainly haven’t seen any IDF officials use that rhetoric. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve seen Israel claiming, over and over, that it was taking extraordinary measures to protect civilians, even while engaging in an extraordinarily deadly campaign that, predictably, is killing tens of thousands of civilians and driving hundreds of thousands of civilians to the brink of famine. Here is the thing. I do not think that there is a better way - defined as a way that will produce less civilian casualties - to actually engage Hamas. Yes, there are way too many civilian casualties in the war in Gaza. And yes, that is a predictable consequence of engaging Hamas. This is because Hamas operates in such a way that it is _impossible_ to engage it _without_ putting civilians at severe risk. People can deny that, or act like it doesn’t matter, or act like it’s reasonable to expect Israel not to engage; or perhaps they say that there _must_ be a better way, that kills fewer civilians, to still effectively fight Hamas. Huh? Why _must_ that be true? If that were true, why can no one offer a concrete and realistic proposal for what this invasion would look like? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve seen nearly every major human rights organization on the planet condemn Israel’s actions as atrocities, and I’ve seen Israel’s defenders dismiss every one of these organizations. These same organizations have shown, again and again, that they are not credible here. For example, Hamas and a baker’s dozen of other organizations have been launching rockets into Israel for decades now. In response, Israel has controlled the flow of goods into the Gaza strip, to prevent Hamas from amassing even more weaponry to shoot at Israel. And these organizations call this “collective punishment”. The very real military justification for controlling what comes into Gaza is completely ignored, and Israel is condemned. So forgive me if I don’t take that seriously. In this conflict, they condemn Israel if it strikes a populated area; they condemn Israel if they try to evacuate civilians; they quickly condemn Israel when Israel wasn’t even at fault, and few if any issue retractions. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do I think that Israel has an official policy calling for the extermination of the Palestinian people? No. Interesting. See below. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do I think that they’ve taken actions that effectively and predictably destroy Gaza as a liveable place? Of course. Do you think people will no longer live in Gaza when this is over? Or even that the population will be significantly lower? Saying that Gaza is going to be (or even has been) “destroyed as a livable place” is an incredibly strong claim about the fate of Gaza, made here offhand as if it was fact. That’s a massively frustrating part of this debate. My prediction is that after this war Gaza will be rebuilt. Israel will pour money in, international aid will pour in, and Egypt may take a critical roll in the construction efforts to bolster its economy. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do I think they could have, and did, predict that their actions would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians? I have no doubt. I agree. I think I may have even said as much right after Oct 7. Any war with Hamas was going to necessitate intense combat in a heavily populated area with a group that’s not shy about using civilians to screen military operations. Just because it was clearly apparent that a war would lead to massive casualties _does not mean that a better alternative was available_. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do I think that their actions qualify as genocide? On this, I defer to the authorities, who are almost unanimous in calling it genocide. Here is what the United Nations has to say about genocide: > **[United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)** > > Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect > [@](#): > > The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element. There are very specific requirements for genocide, as outlined _by the United Nations_. Yet that’s not the definition being used in the case of Israel. You don’t find that odd? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/787 "2024-05-30T20:05:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Here is the thing. I do not think that there is a better way - defined as a way that will produce less civilian casualties - to actually engage Hamas. Yes, there are way too many civilian casualties in the war in Gaza. And yes, that is a predictable consequence of engaging Hamas. This is because Hamas operates in such a way that it is _impossible_ to engage it _without_ putting civilians at severe risk. I have a simple-minded question, for an absurdly improbable hypothetical. Suppose Hamas somehow managed to take over a city block in Tel Aviv. Anyone attempting to leave is shot by snipers. They are firing rockets and performing other evil from this base. They’ve occupied the hospital. What would Israel do? I’m certain they wouldn’t sit on their hands. But I’m equally certain they would not engage in the current strategy of engaging with Hamas and accepting a significant level of civilian deaths as an unavoidable outcome of war, not if the civilians were Israelis. What would the IDF do? Can they do that in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/788 "2024-05-30T21:43:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > What would the IDF do? Can they do that in Gaza? I will respond to your question in as good faith as I possibly can. If Hamas took over a city block in Tel Aviv, I don’t think the IDF response would be identical to the current action in Gaza. If Hamas somehow got a bunch of Palestinian civilians into a city block in Tel Aviv and then did what you describe, I don’t think the IDF response would be identical to action in Gaza, either. It’s not about the fact that the civilians are Israeli or Palestinian; it’s about the fact that a city block sized chunk of Gaza is surrounded by more Gaza, not by Tel Aviv. If Hamas somehow teleported a city block sized chunk of Tel Aviv, people and all, into Gaza, to where operating there posed the same challenges as operating in Gaza itself, I do think we would be seeing the same sorts of tactics and, indeed, very high civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/789 "2024-05-31T00:42:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes it does, it’s explicitly stated as such _by the UN_ …I never denied it was a genocide. Read what I said more _carefully_. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No there isn’t. Lots of deaths in a concentrated area doesn’t equal genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Deliberately ignoring real genocides which have happened in the region > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Funny how you don’t care to remember that, > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You’ve just tried to brush off the Yazidi atrocities as not a genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’ve proven you wrong on multiple occasions > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > even the ICC chairwoman said as such. This is a mix of strawman, fabrications, outright misrepresentation and lies. The easiest one to address are the things that you claimed that I’ve done. None of them are true. I’ve never claimed that “Lots of deaths in a concentrated area equals genocide.” I’ve never tried to “to brush off the Yazidi atrocities as not a genocide.” I’ve “cared to remember” everything. I’ve never deliberately ignored real genocides that have happened in the region. And the ICC chairwoman didn’t say what you claimed she said. What she said is right there in the text you quoted. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Doesn’t mean they’re right all if the time You haven’t actually argued that they are wrong. You’ve just _declared it_. As if the word of an internet rando is supposed to mean anything. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > case in point above by the head of the ICJ. Is the standard that only the head of the ICJ can declare a genocide? Because what did the court have to say about the Yazidi? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The article literally fucking shows you _by example_ how Hamas compromised the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, for you to dismiss their illustration of this as ‘Cartoons’ Is a weak attempt to discredit **Reuters** reporting on that very issue. The article makes a number of testable claims. 500km of tunnels. 1500 tunnels. At that stage of the war, considering the claims that were being made, the evidence the IDF could have presented should have been overwhelming. But it wasn’t, and it isn’t. Lets talk specifics. Israa University. Al Shifa Hospital. Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital. Palestine Square. Shuja’iyya. The Omari Mosque. Under the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law you can’t just blow these places up, knock them down with a bulldozer, or in the case of Al Shifa, set it on fire. It isn’t enough to just _claim_ it was being used by Hamas. A brief statement from an anonymous IDF spox isn’t a get-out-of-jail card for warcrimes. So walk me through each of these for starters. Tell me why they were targeted and destroyed. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Hamas started the war This didn’t start on October the 7th. Hamas committed atrocities that day. Yes, Gaza would be better off without them. Yes, those that did this need to be held responsible. Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But we’ve gone beyond that, and we’ve been beyond that for months now. > [@Babale](#): > > For example, Hamas and a baker’s dozen of other organizations have been launching rockets into Israel for decades now. In response, Israel has controlled the flow of goods into the Gaza strip, to prevent Hamas from amassing even more weaponry to shoot at Israel. And these organizations call this “collective punishment”. The very real military justification for controlling what comes into Gaza is completely ignored, and Israel is condemned. So forgive me if I don’t take that seriously. > [@Ammnesty International](#): > > The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its most devastating consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to adequate supplies of clean and safe water. > > Soon after Israel occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, in June 1967, the Israeli military authorities consolidated complete power over all water resources and water-related infrastructure in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). 50 years on, Israel continues to control and restrict Palestinian access to water in the OPT to a level which neither meets their needs nor constitutes a fair distribution of shared water resources. > > … > > In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration. > > The resulting disparity in access to water between Israelis and Palestinians is truly staggering. Water consumption by Israelis is at least four times that of Palestinians living in the OPT. Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita. In many herding communities in the West Bank, the water consumption for thousands of Palestinians is as low as 20 litres per person a day, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). By contrast, an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day. > **[The Occupation of Water](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)** > > The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to clean and safe... When we talk about the “controlled flow of goods into the Gaza strip”, it’s this kind of thing we are talking about. We could go on at length at how ridiculous and arbitrary the restrictions at the border were, on the lengths that they would go to control every single aspect of Palestinian lives. And yes, these measures, along with the current ongoing siege, are collective punishment. > [@Babale](#): > > In this conflict, they condemn Israel if it strikes a populated area; they condemn Israel if they try to evacuate civilians; There are no “evacuations.” Gaza has been split into zones by Israel. Everything divided into a grid. And they are bouncing people from grid-to-grid like ping-pong balls. At the start of the war they made the impossible demand for everyone to leave the north. Then they damaged or destroyed most of their homes, and if anyone tried to get back to the north they risked getting shot at. Over a million people moved south where they were told it was safe, but then they started bombing the south, forcing people to move again until everyone was squeezed into Rafah. And now they are attacking Rafah, forcing people to move again. Only a propagandist would call this an evacuation. Its ethnic cleansing. Its cruel, its killing people and its a warcrime. This is the impossible background to what’s happening right now. > **[UN warns of impact of growing piles of rubbish in Gaza](https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-warns-impact-growing-piles-113115629.html)** > > Growing piles of rubbish in Gaza mean that families are fleeing to areas that do no have "acceptable living conditions," according to the UN. "Everywhere you look there is a pile of trash," the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine... There is barely any waste collection, disease and infection is rising. This is the reality of what “evacuations” really means. Forced to live, if they are lucky, in tents, only one toilet per 300 people, no hospital access for basic care. Tens of thousands of new orphans. Amputated children. All living in squalor. > [@Babale](#): > > There are very specific requirements for genocide, as outlined _by the United Nations_. Yet that’s not the definition being used in the case of Israel. You don’t find that odd? This is an absolutely _remarkable_ statement. I don’t know if you are lying, or just completely ignorant. Just yesterday, I referred to “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others” that is part of the South African submission to the International Court of Justice _three times_. This is _absolutely_ the definition of genocide that I’m using, that was used in the submissions to the ICJ, that every other person that I know who uses the word genocide is using. Intent _is_ normally the most difficult element to determine. But in this case they literally just tweeted it all out. You obviously haven’t read the South African submission to the ICJ so I’ll provide a link for you again so that you can. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB The submission addresses every element of the genocide convention and provides evidence for each and every one. The claim that this isn’t the definition we are using is about as odd as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/790 "2024-05-31T01:09:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You obviously haven’t read the South African submission to the ICJ so I’ll provide a link for you again so that you can. I _have_ read it, you slimy piece of shit. I read all the out of context and mistranslated quotes they used to try and smear us with blood libel. If I thought there was even the tiniest chance that you were operating in good faith here, I’d be happy to address some of those specific statements. But regardless, the ICC statement wasn’t what I was talking about anyways, as you’d know if you pulled your head far enough out of your own ass to read properly. I was responding to this post that pretty clearly uses a lower standard, as well as many like it: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The last seven months have convinced you that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people? Even the Gazan people specifically? WTF? > > From my understanding, this is not a requirement for genocide. If some portion of the IDF is either in favor of, or ambivalent to, either killing all Gazans, or pushing all Gazans out of Gaza, and some of them are taking action with this in mind, that would be enough for a risk of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/791 "2024-05-31T01:17:23Z")
Thanks for taking the time to respond. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/792 "2024-05-31T01:18:09Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Thanks for taking the time to respond Thank you for taking the time to engage intelligently and in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/793 "2024-05-31T01:42:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I read all the out of context and mistranslated quotes they used to try and smear us with blood libel. Hmmm. What exactly are the quotes you consider sufficiently “out of context and mistranslated” to change their meaning to that extent? AFAICT, the quotes in that linked Application document from Israeli officials are either quoted from press releases or Israeli and/or major English-language news sources—which I would have thought would be a fairly reliable source of competent translations—or else translated from said officials’ own social media tweets in Hebrew, with footnotes linking to the original tweets. Now, my own Hebrew is way too rudimentary and rusty to assess the validity of those translations directly, but when I’ve copied a few of the original tweets into Google Translate, they seem to be rendered pretty much as the report rendered them. So I remain a bit puzzled about exactly what Israeli statements you think have been mistranslated and decontextualized so drastically as to give a totally misleading impression of potentially genocidal implications. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/794 "2024-05-31T01:49:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I read all the out of context and mistranslated quotes they used to try and smear us with blood libel. > > Hmmm. What exactly are the quotes you consider sufficiently “out of context and mistranslated” to change their meaning to that extent? And how exactly are they “blood libel”? > **[Blood libel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel)** > > Blood libel or ritual murder libel (also blood accusation) is an antisemitic canard which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals. Echoing very old myths of secret cultic practices in many prehistoric societies, the claim, as it is leveled against Jews, was rarely attested to in antiquity. According to Tertullian, it originally emerged in late antiquity as an accusation made against members of the ear Blood libels often ... > The term ‘blood libel’ has also been used in reference to any unpleasant or damaging false accusation, and as a result, it has acquired a broader metaphoric meaning. However, this wider usage of the term remains controversial, **because Jewish groups object to it**. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/795 "2024-05-31T01:58:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And how exactly are they “blood libel”? My interpretation, which is by no means Babale-confirmed but which I tentatively offer for what it’s worth, is that Babale’s use of the term “blood libel” was intended to imply that the report’s quotes from Israelis were so egregiously mistranslated/decontextualized as to constitute a totally unjustified allegation about Jews murdering non-Jews. Which is what “blood libel” historically means. Like I said, that doesn’t jibe with my own impression of the report’s content, but I’m willing to have my impression corrected on the basis of more competent understanding of Hebrew than I can claim to possess. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/796 "2024-05-31T02:02:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I _have_ read it, you slimy piece of shit. …so when you claimed that “yet that’s not the definition being used in the case of Israel”, that was just a flat-out-lie then. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/797 "2024-05-31T02:12:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Hmmm. What exactly are the quotes you consider sufficiently “out of context and mistranslated” to change their meaning to that extent? How about “completely flip the meaning of the quote”? Here’s one. > [@South African Blood Libel](#): > > He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released all the restraints”,453 stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”454 [The real quote](https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=-oRC89bSv89vVjeO&t=22&v=h9pekNeOYII&feature=youtu.be) “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. **Hamas won’t be there**. We will eliminate all of it.” Now, _why oh why_ would South Africa drop the emphasized bit? In their defense - they are quoting from an article that _also_ dropped that _very relevant_ bit of context. So maybe they are just exceedingly negligent, basing a lawsuit on hearsay rather than actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/798 "2024-05-31T02:13:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so when you claimed that “yet that’s not the definition being used in the case of Israel”, that was just a flat-out-lie then. Apparently you can’t read: > [@Babale](#): > > But regardless, the ICC statement wasn’t what I was talking about anyways, as you’d know if you pulled your head far enough out of your own ass to read properly. I was responding to this post that pretty clearly uses a lower standard, as well as many like it: > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > > The last seven months have convinced you that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people? Even the Gazan people specifically? WTF? > > > > From my understanding, this is not a requirement for genocide. If some portion of the IDF is either in favor of, or ambivalent to, either killing all Gazans, or pushing all Gazans out of Gaza, and some of them are taking action with this in mind, that would be enough for a risk of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/799 "2024-05-31T02:25:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Apparently you can’t read: > [@Babale](#): > > I agree. I think I may have even said as much right after Oct 7. Any war with Hamas was going to necessitate intense combat in a heavily populated area with a group that’s not shy about using civilians to screen military operations. > > Just because it was clearly apparent that a war would lead to massive casualties _does not mean that a better alternative was available_. > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Do I think that their actions qualify as genocide? On this, I defer to the authorities, who are almost unanimous in calling it genocide. > > Here is what the United Nations has to say about genocide: > > [United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) > > > [@](#): > > > > The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element. > > There are very specific requirements for genocide, as outlined _by the United Nations_. Yet that’s not the definition being used in the case of Israel. You don’t find that odd? …the full quote, lest you accuse me of taking anything out of context. You were responding to Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness, not iiandyiiii. Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness deferred to the _authorities_, **not** iiandyiiii. > [@Babale](#): > > they are quoting from an article that _also_ dropped that _very relevant_ bit of context. Israel had the right of response. If any of the quotes were inaccurate, they had every opportunity to point it out when they had the chance. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/800 "2024-05-31T02:29:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel had the right of response. If any of the quotes were inaccurate, they had every opportunity to point it out when they had the chance. Ok, there’s no **way** you are this fucking stupid. You have **got** to be trolling now. Like, I’m not sure what the educational system is like im New Zealand, but there’s no _way_ they turned out someone as dense as you. Think _very, very carefully_. When you are sued, when is “the chance” to defend yourself from any allegations? Hint: the _entire fucking purpose_ of a court is to run these. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=41)