# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/901 "2024-06-09T15:50:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and if a terror organization were holding four hostages in two apartments in a residential area populated by civilians in downtown San Francisco, how many civilian casualties do you think would be acceptable? 300 dead, 600 wounded sound about right to you? The difference is that San Francisco isn’t under the civil and administrative control of a terrorist government, so if four hostages (say, from LA) were taken into an apartment building in San Francisco, then the authorities in San Francisco would be called, and they would deal with the situation. If San Francisco’s civil and administrative government was run by a terrorist group that did the kidnapping in the first place, and the only way to get to the apartment was to engage in pitched battle against the SFPD through the streets of San Francisco, then yeah I would absolutely expect hundreds of casualties. You’d need to be braindead levels of stupid not to. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/902 "2024-06-09T15:58:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Under the apparent pretence of an aid truck, something that is expressly forbidden because it puts _all_ the lives of aid workers in danger. Now every aid truck in Gaza risks either getting blown up by IDF forces, or under increased scrutiny from Hamas. Do you have a source for that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/903 "2024-06-09T16:22:23Z")
I would expect them not to battle through the streets in that case. You have to be incredibly callous to the deaths of children not to. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/904 "2024-06-09T16:30:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The difference is that San Francisco isn’t under the civil and administrative control of a terrorist government, so if four hostages (say, from LA) were taken into an apartment building in San Francisco, then the authorities in San Francisco would be called, and they would deal with the situation. …but those authorities that got called into deal with that situation also had hostages of their own. In fact, they had thousands more hostages than what the terrorist organization had. And they regularly beat them, humiliate them, and torture them, many under the pretence of “administrative detention.” And those authorities in San Francisco would also have been bombing the hell out of the neighbourhood for eight months, have complete air, sea and land superiority, had destroyed the healthcare system of the terrorists, and forced over a million people out of their homes before damaging or destroying those homes. Those authorities have complete control over the borders, including who and what gets in and out. And they’ve had the civilians living in the proximity of those apartment blocks under siege for eight months, and many of those civilians are experiencing famine. Those terrorists did some pretty bad, evil things. They should be captured and punished. But the authorities? We don’t get to call them terrorists. But they are some evil motherfuckers. And they will never, ever be found accountable for their warcrimes. > [@Babale](#): > > If San Francisco’s civil and administrative government was run by a terrorist group that did the kidnapping in the first place, and the only way to get to the apartment was to engage in pitched battle against the SFPD through the streets of San Francisco, then yeah I would absolutely expect hundreds of casualties. Yeah, but one would question why it got to this point anyway, when the option of diplomacy has been on the table the entire time. And you would have to question why they would bomb a market. I can show you the video of the immediate aftermath if you like. Because those mangled bodies weren’t caused by a “pitched battle.” > [@Babale](#): > > You’d need to be braindead levels of stupid not to. Eight months. Over 40,000 Gazans dead. Over a million people displaced, and _continued_ to be displaced. Only 7 rescued hostages. How fucking useless are the IDF? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Do you have a source for that claim? Eyewitness accounts on the ground. It’s been denied by Israel, hence the “apparent”, there hasn’t been independent confirmation, and given the nature of this “war”, we are unlikely to get it. > [@](#): > > Eyewitnesses tell Asharq that beside the disguised troops, other special forces snuck into the Nuseirat camp inside an aid truck. The IDF has denied using humanitarian transports for the operation. > **[Report: Special forces posed as displaced Gazans moving into building where...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-special-forces-posed-as-displaced-gazans-moving-into-building-where-hostage-held/)** > > \* \* \* ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/905 "2024-06-09T16:33:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s been denied by Israel So it didn’t happen then. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/906 "2024-06-09T16:53:15Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > So it didn’t happen then. …considering Israel’s track record with the truth, it would normally mean the complete opposite. Spokespeople for the Israeli government and the IDF routinely lie all the time. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/907 "2024-06-09T17:01:59Z")
Both sides have lied routinely. But it seems no one has denied, “they posed as Palestinian refugees from elsewhere, to infiltrate the camp”, so that’s probably true. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/908 "2024-06-09T20:46:15Z")
Gantz has resigned. > **[Israel-Gaza war live updates: Gantz to leave emergency government in rebuke...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/09/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza-hostages/)** > > Benny Gantz’s resignation may not bring down the government, but it increases the pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to accept a cease-fire proposal. Gvir is demanding that he get to join the war cabinet. Netanyahu looks to have three main choices right now: 1. Double-down with his increasingly violent and brutal approach to the war, inviting Gvir to join the cabinet. 2. Accept a ceasefire proposal that will likely see the dissolution of his government; or 3. Try to continue as-is and likely see a dissolution of his government. Do I have that right? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/909 "2024-06-09T21:34:57Z")
It would seem to me, and I definitely could be wrong here, that certain people in here value their heritage more than they value being decent human being, and/or they are just too biased to be objective. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/910 "2024-06-10T00:01:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whether they’ve signed papers doesn’t make their crimes not crimes. A treaty that applies to nations that haven’t signed it? That’s a new one. Is there anything your imaginary laws can’t do? Besides preventing babies from being decapitated and teenagers being kidnapped and held hostage for eight months, that is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/911 "2024-06-10T00:07:42Z")
Who? IIRC, Smapti is not Jewish. And blaming someone’s Jewishness for any bad views is at least a tad anti-semitic. Smapti’s ethnic or religious background is irrelevant to his dumb views on this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/912 "2024-06-10T01:02:49Z")
For the record, I have Jewish cousins but am not ethnically Jewish myself. I am passionate about Israel because it is a liberal democracy under assault by fascist theocrats who want to commit genocide against its people and who are experts at exploiting liberal guilt to get the naive and squeamish on their side. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/913 "2024-06-10T02:11:17Z")
Israel at present is led by fascists who have functionally been doing Hamas’s bidding for years and are continuing to do so. The more Gazan civilians killed by the IDF, the stronger Hamas and other fundamentalists get. Right now, the Israeli government and the IDF are essentially working with Hamas to destroy any chance at peace and security for Israelis and Palestinians in the long term, because that’s what they (this Israeli government and Hamas) agree on - no peace, no security, and absolutely no two state solution. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/914 "2024-06-10T02:13:14Z")
You’re gonna need to stop reusing that line once Gantz is PM in a few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/915 "2024-06-10T02:15:39Z")
I’d love to. Hopefully Israel will stop doing the bidding of Hamas very soon. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/916 "2024-06-10T02:51:40Z")
It occurred to me that @Smapti’s theory leads to this result. If Israel isn’t responsible for the tens of thousands of civilians that they’ve killed–if all those deaths are Hamas’s responsibility–then it follows that Israel is the means through which Hamas is accomplishing the deaths. Israel’s government is, according to his theory, a helpless tool in the hands of Hamas, or at best a useful idiot dancing to their tune. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/917 "2024-06-10T03:23:17Z")
If Hamas wants Hamas dead, then I’m amenable to Israel obliging them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/918 "2024-06-10T05:22:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A treaty that applies to nations that haven’t signed it? That’s a new one. Idiots with no clue about [how customary IHL works](https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/icty/icty.html) shouldn’t try and use it to prop up barbarity when way smarter people than them covered that loophole ages ago. > [@Max\_S](#): > > International law is a weak spot of mine Clearly, if you think “they didn’t sign” has been any kind of excuse for a while now. That ship sailed in 1993. Like I told that dumb motherfucker Smapti, the international community aren’t the gullible idiots he would like them to be, and addressed this “but we didn’t sign” excuse decades ago. The ICRC went to all the trouble of collecting what are considered [the Customary IHL rules that apply to everyone, regardless of what paper they signed](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule14). That link’s to the proportionality summary - it’s more-or-less the same as the actual convention, you’ll note. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/919 "2024-06-10T06:24:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Idiots with no clue about [how customary IHL works](https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/icty/icty.html) I know exactly how it works - not at all. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The ICRC went to all the trouble of collecting what are considered [the Customary IHL rules that apply to everyone, regardless of what paper they signed](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule14). Sure, and by opening this box I agree to abide by the EULA therein. The ICRC can fuck off if it thinks it can give orders to sovereign states regardless of whether they accede to them or not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/920 "2024-06-10T06:29:16Z")
If IHL doesn’t work, don’t make stupid legalese arguments that hinge on legality, then. At least you and terrorists agree on not respecting international law. > [@Smapti](#): > > Sure, and by opening this box I agree to abide by the EULA therein. Wars are not Amazon packages, idiot. Human lives matter - well, to non-sociopaths, at least. > [@Smapti](#): > > The ICRC can fuck off if it thinks it can give orders to sovereign states The ICRC isn’t “giving orders”, shit-for-brains. It’s merely collecting what’s considered customary IHL in one spot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=47)