# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/921 "2024-06-10T06:40:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The ICRC isn’t “giving orders”, shit-for-brains. Then we’re in agreement that they can’t compel a sovereign state to comply with treaties they aren’t party to. Good. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Wars are not Amazon packages, idiot. And a contract that one party has no say in the terms of nor a choice as to whether to agree to it is unenforceable. If “international law” were worth a damn it would have prevented 10/7. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/922 "2024-06-10T09:55:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then we’re in agreement that they can’t compel a sovereign state to comply with treaties they aren’t party to. Because we were _all_ talking about _compelling_ Israel, as opposed to whether Israel was right or wrong 🙄 > [@Smapti](#): > > And a contract IHL isn’t a contract, so dumb analogy continues to be dumb. > [@Smapti](#): > > If “international law” were worth a damn it would have prevented 10/7. I’ll remember international law is meaningless next time you cry “But Hamas are the real genociders”…“Genocide? What’s that?” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/923 "2024-06-10T09:57:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll remember international law is meaningless next time you cry “But Hamas are the real genociders”…“Genocide? What’s that?” The concept of genocide exists independently of weirdos in robes pretending to be judges, and I’m capable of recognizing it when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/924 "2024-06-10T10:01:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The concept of genocide exists independently of weirdos in robes pretending to be judges Absent international law, the term is meaningless. Gotta admit, though, it’s a bit rich that the guy well-known for his fetish for police uniforms thinks IHL judges are weird. > [@Smapti](#): > > I’m capable of recognizing it when I see it. We have already seen that you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/925 "2024-06-10T10:04:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Absent international law, the term is meaningless. That’s not how language works. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/926 "2024-06-10T10:27:47Z")
Oh, _now_ it’s a language argument, not a legal one? My, my, how those poles do move. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/927 "2024-06-10T11:28:43Z")
Your argument is not consistent with any principle except “Smapti has hitched his wagon to Israel in this conflict regardless of Israel’s actions and events on the ground”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/928 "2024-06-10T12:02:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then we’re in agreement that they can’t compel a sovereign state to comply with treaties they aren’t party to. There is no enforcement arm to international law. Literally no one thinks the UN is going to step in and force Israel to do anything. No one stopped Hamas from its attack on Oct 7, either, nor is there any international body that was in a position to do anything other than offer condemnation. The argument is about morality, not about what some non-existent international police force or army is going to do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/929 "2024-06-10T12:47:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your argument is not consistent with any principle except “Smapti has hitched his wagon to Israel in this conflict regardless of Israel’s actions and events on the ground”. I think it’s worse than that. He literally wrote, above > [@Smapti](#): > > when your cause is just the ends justify the means. “The ends justify the means” is essentially [dumbass Machiavelli](https://factmyth.com/factoids/machiavelli-said-the-ends-justify-the-means/), a simplification and distortion of an already questionable approach to morality, suitable only for thugs and sociopaths. He suggests that if someone does you wrong and needs to be stopped (“your cause is just”), you’re freed from all moral constraints. There is no evil you can perpetrate which is beyond the pale, because your end is just. Your means–mass killings, torture, suppression of dissent, famine, genocide --are justified. Hey, you wanna make an omelette, you gotta break some eggs. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/930 "2024-06-10T14:06:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Eyewitness accounts on the ground. It’s been denied by Israel, hence the “apparent”, there hasn’t been independent confirmation, and given the nature of this “war”, we are unlikely to get it. > > > [@](#): > > > > Eyewitnesses tell Asharq that beside the disguised troops, other special forces snuck into the Nuseirat camp inside an aid truck. The IDF has denied using humanitarian transports for the operation. Gift link: > **[Inside Israel’s hostage rescue: Secret plans and a deadly ‘wall of fire’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/09/israel-gaza-hostages-rescue-raid/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzE3OTA1NjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzE5Mjg3OTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MTc5MDU2MDAsImp0aSI6Ijg4ZDRlN2E2LTg5N2MtNDYxZS05MDYwLWM2MmQ0NzlhYTUzZSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS93b3JsZC8yMDI0LzA2LzA5L2lzcmFlbC1nYXphLWhvc3RhZ2VzLXJlc2N1ZS1yYWlkLyJ9.VVZXTMhDqZ7wKfE2LJ2K9VpenPz1Jq4x_zpEArSWQhA&itid=gfta)** > > This account is based on more than a dozen interviews with former and current Israeli military officials, family members of hostages and Palestinian eyewitnesses. According to this WaPo article, there were two trucks, which were not marked as “aid trucks”, but I’ve of the trucks resembled them. > Palestinian witnesses described some troops arriving in two undercover vehicles, one of which resembled the trucks used by Israel to bring commercial goods into Gaza. The other was a white Mercedes truck, piled high with furniture and other belongings, a common sight in a camp that’s home to thousands of displaced families. > … > Two videos verified by The Washington Post show a box truck marked with a brand of dishwashing soap traveling in the company of Israeli armored vehicles on a road about a mile west of the raid. The vehicles head west, away from Nuseirat, and it is unclear whether the videos were filmed before or after the raid. WaPo also says the white Mercedes is visible in a video taken by a Palestinian in the camp. It’s an interesting article. Apparently the woman was held on one building and the three men in another. The commando team was able to get to the woman without raising an alarm, and hustled her to a nearby vehicle and then drove to a helicopter. But the team going for the men failed to take their guards by surprise, and a gunfight ensued that alerted the whole community. And THAT’S when Israeli forces in the air “started shooting to give them a corridor, a wall of fire”. And it wasn’t just shooting, they dropped bombs, too. That’s the attack that killed so many of the nearby refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/931 "2024-06-10T15:09:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And it wasn’t just shooting, they dropped bombs, too. …the live video from the slaughter made it very clear most of the deaths happened from bombing the market, not from shooting. There are broken bodies _everywhere_. Men, women, children. There may have been a “pitched battle” somewhere, but that wasn’t what killed most of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/932 "2024-06-10T21:29:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He suggests that if someone does you wrong and needs to be stopped (“your cause is just”), you’re freed from all moral constraints. There is no evil you can perpetrate which is beyond the pale, because your end is just. That’s how we won World War II. We did what was necessary and didn’t wring our hands worrying about the poor innocent widdle Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/933 "2024-06-10T22:21:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There is no enforcement arm to international law. Literally no one thinks the UN is going to step in and force Israel to do anything. > > No one stopped Hamas from its attack on Oct 7, either, nor is there any international body that was in a position to do anything other than offer condemnation. > > The argument is about morality, not about what some non-existent international police force or army is going to do. I think, hypothetically in theory, if you are Vladimir Putin, Henry Kissinger, etc. then you might have a whole bunch of warrants out for your arrest and trial. Might add an extra complication to your holiday travel plans. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/934 "2024-06-10T22:25:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s how we won World War II. We did what was necessary and didn’t wring our hands worrying about the poor innocent widdle Nazis. Yes, the Allies made absolutely no effort to avoid civilian causalities! Hell they didn’t even hesitate to bomb the death camps out of existence! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/935 "2024-06-10T22:35:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There is no enforcement arm to international law. That’s the point I’ve been making for months as to why international law is meaningless and useless. Glad to see you agree. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The argument is about morality, not about what some non-existent international police force or army is going to do. If this is an argument about morality, then we can dispense with the arguments from authority about what the ICC or ICJ or ICRC or Geneva Convention or Rome Statute or First Reformed Treaty of Memphis (1957 Synod) have to say about what Israel is “allowed” to do as if it mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/936 "2024-06-10T22:59:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If this is an argument about morality …in eight months of war, one party has killed 40 children, the other party over 13,000. Are either of those numbers morally justifiable? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/937 "2024-06-10T23:00:27Z")
You don’t think that morality is at all related to widely agreed upon rules of conduct? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/938 "2024-06-10T23:03:58Z")
Smapti only has the morality he’s been told to have. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/939 "2024-06-11T00:02:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Are either of those numbers morally justifiable? Yes, one of them is. Did the liberation of France cease to be justifiable because children were killed in the fighting? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > You don’t think that morality is at all related to widely agreed upon rules of conduct? Agreed on by who? The impetus for this entire part of the conversation was MrDibble claiming that Israel is obligated to obey treaties it hasn’t even signed. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/940 "2024-06-11T00:32:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, one of them is. …was it the 40, or the 13,000? Can you be specific? Because from the numbers alone, I’m guessing it’s the 40. > [@Smapti](#): > > Did the liberation of France cease to be justifiable because children were killed in the fighting? It depends on whether or not you think the people who killed the 13,000 children were the liberators of France or the people that killed 13,000 children in France, I suppose. Did Israel liberate those 13,000 Palestinian children they killed? Are they now free? Is this morality? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=48)