# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/961 "2024-06-11T02:28:39Z")
What you hold means fuck all. If you were 1930s Herr Sampti you’d be justifying the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/962 "2024-06-11T02:50:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If you were 1930s Herr Sampti you’d be justifying the Holocaust. Bullshit. The Allies were the just party in that war, though I’m sure that if Banquet\_Bear weren’t such a coward he’d find some way to tell us how the bombing of Dresden was just as bad as the Holocaust and it wasn’t worth it to save the concentration camp inmates, because he has the outlook of the Santabot on Futurama that believes the kid getting bullied for his lunch money is exactly as naughty for not paying it as the bully is. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/963 "2024-06-11T02:56:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Allies were the just party in that war I’m quite certain that 1930’s Herr Sampti would beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/964 "2024-06-11T03:13:58Z")
I don’t know who that person is. Do they even exist? If you have to invent imaginary people to be mad at then it seems to me you’ve lost the plot. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/965 "2024-06-11T03:25:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t know who that person is. Do they even exist? Do you own a mirror? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/966 "2024-06-11T03:27:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve given you my answer; Israel’s cause is just, therefore the ends justify the means. …it wasn’t a question about “who’s cause is just.” Because _liberation from occupation_ is a just cause, which is one of the things that Hamas are fighting for. But that doesn’t make the slaughter of innocents by Hamas morally justifiable. Here’s the salient point: “the cause” is independent from the actions used to fight for that cause. Its what makes Saw Gerrera and story of the Rebellion so compelling. Gerrera is undeniably a terrorist. But his cause is just. Does that make his actions morally justifiable? If you want to have a debate about the morality of the actions of the players, you’ve got to actually address the actions, _not_ what either side claim they are fighting for. > [@Smapti](#): > > Fighting against evil, according to you, is exactly as bad as being evil, because civilian deaths are never justifiable. I think the actions of Hamas were evil. And I think the response from the Israeli government has been evil. > [@Smapti](#): > > Therefore, the only moral thing to do is to allow fascism to conquer the world unchecked, because there is no moral way to defeat it since civilian casualties are an inevitable result of all war. What happens when fascism goes unchecked: > [@ReliefWeb](#): > > Palestinian prisoners and detainees from the Gaza Strip who are being held by the Israeli army are being subjected to premeditated murder and arbitrary execution outside the purview of the law and the judiciary, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor said in a statement issued Saturday. > > … > > According to Euro-Med Monitor, Israeli prisons and detention centres have become more brutal replicas of Guantanamo. Ill treatment and degrading disregard of human dignity, deprivation of the most basic rights, and horrible forms of torture including those that result in murder have been documented despite numerous international condemnations and demands to ensure the rights and safety of prisoners and detainees. > > … > > There, detainees are held in very harsh conditions, akin to open-air chicken cages, without access to food or drink for long periods of time, in addition to being subjected to severe torture, beatings, and ill-treatment to extract forced confessions and/or punish them for being Palestinians. They were also denied any contact with the outside world. > > According to Euro-Med Monitor, the age range of the detainees in the Israeli camps includes children, youth, and the elderly. > [@](#): > > In his testimony to the Euro-Med Monitor team, Daloul reported that “the soldiers asked me to be completely naked and searched me using electronic devices, and then took me for investigation, during which I was beaten with sticks and batons, including in the face. One of the soldiers even put his foot on my chest until I was almost out of breath. The soldiers left me there when they saw blood pouring from my head and feet.” > **[Palestinian prisoners are victims of torture and systematic executions as...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinian-prisoners-are-victims-torture-and-systematic-executions-international-organisations-are-silent-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 9 Mar 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor Is beating prisoners with sticks and batons until blood pours out of their hands and feet morally justified? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/967 "2024-06-11T03:29:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > if Banquet\_Bear weren’t such a coward …if you weren’t such a coward, you would just come out and state that you think the killing of 13,000 Palestinian children by the IDF is morally justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/968 "2024-06-11T03:33:38Z")
Morally justifiable? I fear that for Smapti it’s a moral imperative. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/969 "2024-06-11T03:42:11Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Do you own a mirror? I just checked mine. It confirmed what I previously suspected - that I am not a 95-year-old German. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/970 "2024-06-11T03:47:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because _liberation from occupation_ is a just cause, which is one of the things that Hamas are fighting for. Hamas are the oppressors Gaza needs to be liberated from, dumbass. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Gerrera is undeniably a terrorist. But his cause is just. Does that make his actions morally justifiable? Yes. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is beating prisoners with sticks and batons until blood pours out of their hands and feet morally justified? No, that seems excessive and I don’t see how it helps advance Israel’s cause. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if you weren’t such a coward, you would just come out and state that you think the killing of 13,000 Palestinian children by the IDF is morally justifiable. I’ve already given you my answer to that several times. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/971 "2024-06-11T03:53:07Z")
[Government advocate]: Smapti, is it correct that you ordered your troops to fire at the thickest part of the crowd? Smapti : [righteous tone] That is so. [Government advocate]: One thousand five hundred and sixteen casualties with one thousand six hundred and fifty bullets. Smapti : My intention was to inflict a lesson that would have an impact throughout all India. [Indian barrister]: Smapti, had you been able to take in the armored car, would you have opened fire with the machine gun? Smapti : I think, probably, yes. [Lord Hunter]: Smapti, did you realize there were children, and women, in the crowd? Smapti : I did. [Government advocate]: But that was irrelevant to the point you were making? Smapti : That is correct! [Government advocate]: Could I ask you what provision you made for the wounded? Smapti : I was ready to help any who applied. [Government advocate]: Smapti, how does a child shot with a 303 Lee-Enfield “apply” for help? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/972 "2024-06-11T03:59:20Z")
Here’s a button, 🔘, push it and Israel is guaranteed peace until the heat death of the Universe. One catch, pushing it also kills every child in Gaza. I wonder if Smapti would push that button. Actually, I fear I already know… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/973 "2024-06-11T04:03:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Gerrera is undeniably a terrorist. But his cause is just. Does that make his actions morally justifiable? > > Yes. @Banquet_Bear, are you expecting to ask this halfwit psycho the question that will make him say, “Oh dear, you’re right, maybe I shouldn’t support genocide”? Are you holding out hope that this poorly-programmed killbot will find an ounce of humanity, if you just phrase the facts the right way? Or is he not the audience at all? I’m legit confused. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/974 "2024-06-11T04:05:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas are the oppressors Gaza needs to be liberated from, dumbass. … _Israel_ are the oppressors. Israel have total air, land and air supremacy. Israel have total control of the borders. Israel are the people with actual, functional torture camps and they’ve been in operation for years. Israel have been disappearing Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank. The Rebellion are the Palestinians that are resisting the occupation. Hamas is Gerrera, who is a terrorist, and a bad guy. > [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve already given you my answer to that several times. So it’s the 40 then. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/975 "2024-06-11T04:08:03Z")
Darth Smapti does have a ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/976 "2024-06-11T04:09:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So it’s the 40 then. Wrong. I recommend remedial reading comprehension classes at your local community college. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/977 "2024-06-11T04:15:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Wrong. I recommend remedial reading comprehension classes at your local community college. > [@](#): > > - Children in Gaza have been killed and maimed by Israeli forces at an unprecedented rate. More than 13,800 Palestinian children were killed in Gaza, and 33 Israeli children were killed by armed groups in the 7 October attacks. At least [725 children](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-145) have been injured since 7 October in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and [114 have been killed](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_fatally_shoot_14_year_old_palestinian_boy_in_the_chest). > - The destruction of schools and hospitals in Gaza has become the norm, with most children unable to get even the most basic treatment or pain management due to the obliterated health system. > - Israeli children were abducted and held hostage in Gaza reportedly subjected to violence with lasting impact on their mental health and wellbeing and at least 460 Palestinian children have been arbitrarily detained since 7 October, with some [telling](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/palestinian-children-israeli-military-detention-report-increasingly-violent-conditions) Save the Children’s partners of starvation, abuse and inhumane treatment in detention. [https://www.savethechildren.net/news/over-2-gaza-s-child-population-killed-or-injured-six-months-war](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/over-2-gaza-s-child-population-killed-or-injured-six-months-war) This is what Smapti considers morally justifiable, that killing Palestinian children is actually their “liberation.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/978 "2024-06-11T04:26:06Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Here’s a button, 🔘, push it and Israel is guaranteed peace until the heat death of the Universe. One catch, pushing it also kills every child in Gaza. I wonder if Smapti would push that button. Just to make sure I have this perfectly clear; you’re asking if I would sacrifice a few hundred thousand lives now in order to guarantee the safety of trillions of people for billions of years, and there’s no other catch? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Rebellion are the Palestinians that are resisting the occupation. Hamas is Gerrera, who is a terrorist, and a bad guy. BWAHAHAHAHA. That’s the funniest thing you’ve said all day. Yes, the religious fanatics who execute women for dress code violations are just like the guys fighting to preserve democracy against an evil wizard and his Space Nazis who regularly blow up entire planets just for fun. What a sick deranged individual you are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/979 "2024-06-11T04:27:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is what Smapti considers morally justifiable, that killing Palestinian children is actually their “liberation.” 2% dead means 98% alive who’ll be much better off once Hamas is no more. 1 for 50 is an acceptable ratio in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/980 "2024-06-11T04:31:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, the religious fanatics who execute women for dress code violations …I said _Palestinians_. Are you conflating all Palestinians with Hamas? Are you conflating all Palestinians with religious extremism? How is this Israeli liberation operation working exactly? If the target is all Palestinians, then who is getting liberated exactly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=50)