# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/81 "2023-11-07T05:34:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Irrelevant, The article covers more than Gazans. > Palestinian citizens of Israel have a wider set of rights than Palestinians in the occupied territories. They have the ability to vote in Israeli elections and serve in the Knesset, but they face limited opportunities to own land and build homes, [along with evictions,](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/07/israel-opt-500-palestinians-facing-forcible-eviction-displacement-and-segregation/) differences in [immigration policy](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/3/15/devastating-how-israel-is-pulling-palestinian-families-apart), and implicit restrictions on social service access. Palestinian citizens face major challenges to get residential home permits approved due to[zoning restrictions that limit expansion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians), and often risk demolition by building without them. Additionally, [they’ve been the subject of evictions that human rights groups](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/07/israel-opt-500-palestinians-facing-forcible-eviction-displacement-and-segregation/#:~:text=An%20Israeli%20court%20has%20given,apartheid%2C%20Amnesty%20International%20said%20today.) say are aimed at clearing the way for more Jewish-majority neighborhoods. [The 1950 Law of Return](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel#chapter-title-0-4) also enables any Jewish person to move to Israel and become a citizen, while Palestinians do not have this right even if their families were previously displaced from land now within Israel’s borders. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/82 "2023-11-07T05:35:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Seeing how some pro-Israel advocates on this board have been talking about Palestinians (not Hamas, civilian Palestinians) on this board have made me see I was wrong. I’m sure I’d love to know what you mean there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/83 "2023-11-07T05:35:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So _before_ that, you know, all the rest of the time Israel had control over power, water, borders - that _wasn’t_ occupation Is it Israel’s fault that the government of Gaza decided to build tunnels and missile batteries instead of power plants and schools? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/84 "2023-11-07T05:37:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m sure I’d love to know what you mean there. Exactly what I said. You, Smapti, some others, have really re-opened my eyes. So good job, you! You don’t view Palestinian civilians as worth protecting. At all. Your responses to the ambulance bombing show that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/85 "2023-11-07T05:37:52Z")
Is it Palestinian civilians’ fault? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/86 "2023-11-07T05:37:57Z")
But it also discusses the status of Israeli Arabs within Israel’s borders. Here’s just one section: > [@](#): > > Those arguing that Israel practices apartheid point to the passage of a 2018 law known as the “nation-state law” as well as multiple statements that Israeli leaders have made emphasizing that they seek to prioritize the rights of Israeli Jewish residents in the region over those of other groups. > > That law — which was widely criticized by Palestinians and liberal Israeli Jews as undemocratic — explicitly stated that the right to “national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.” That line underscored the reality that there was no political appetite for a one-state solution in which Palestinians and Israelis were treated equally, and its critics argued it made plain that Palestinians are second-class citizens. > > Additionally, the law said that “the state views Jewish settlement as a national value and will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development,” while downgrading Arabic from its designation as an official language. These tenets were also interpreted as legally treating Palestinian citizens different from their Jewish counterparts. > > Coupled with statements by Israeli government officials, groups say the intention to maintain the dominance of one group over others is evident. > > Israel is “the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people,” Israel’s current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in 2019. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/87 "2023-11-07T05:39:15Z")
So whatever merits Alessan’s arguments guided you towards, you decided against them solely because of the opinions of non Israelis with no personal stake in the issue? What does their opinion have to do with anything? I mean, I’m going to side eye any agreement I have with conservatives, but I’m not necessarily going to reverse my opinion solely on that count (which some conservatives claim to do about liberal views, actually…). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/88 "2023-11-07T05:41:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Arab Israelis are discriminated against _less_. not _not_ discriminated against. Ah, yes. How could I forget that Israeli Arabs aren’t allowed to vote, must practice the state-sanctioned religion or be executed, and the military shoots them if they try to flee their homes? Wait, wait, I’m being told that none of that is true, and is in fact how Hamas treats its own citizens. Sorry for the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/89 "2023-11-07T05:42:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is it Palestinian civilians’ fault? No it is not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/90 "2023-11-07T05:42:23Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So whatever merits Alessan’s arguments guided you towards, you decided against them solely because of the opinions of non Israelis with no personal stake in the issue? At least one of those people _is_ an Israeli. > [@Leaper](#): > > What does their opinion have to do with anything? It wasn’t _just_ their opinion, it was the cites they were making and the overall attitude it revealed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/91 "2023-11-07T05:43:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Ah, yes. How could I forget that Israeli Arabs aren’t allowed to vote, must practice the state-sanctioned religion or be executed, and the military shoots them if they try to flee their homes? Oh. yes. How could I forget if you’re not being shot at, you’re not discriminated against 🙄 Also, your fallacy today is: Whataboutism. Thanks for playing, and enjoy these parting gifts 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/92 "2023-11-07T05:44:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > At least one of those people _is_ an Israeli. Aha, I didn’t know that. That brings it closer to home for me. But I’m still not sure how their attitudes changed the facts for you. Or did you feel the whole question is emotionally based rather than based on objective facts? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/93 "2023-11-07T05:48:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Or did you feel the whole question is emotionally based rather than based on objective facts? Both. Some of the things cited were objective things the Israelis and IDF said and did. Other things were the attitudes displayed towards Palestinian civilians. I don’t discount emotions, like some, because for one thing, I am not a robot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/94 "2023-11-07T05:56:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t view Palestinian civilians as worth protecting. To the contrary; we seem to be the only ones who believe the Palestinian people deserve to be protected, which is what Israel is doing by seeking to liberate them from the Hamas regime that clearly shows no interest in whether they live or die. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/95 "2023-11-07T05:58:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t view Palestinian civilians as worth protecting. At all. Your responses to the ambulance bombing show that. I am very saddened to hear you say that. Obviously I don’t think that’s true at all. I think Palestinian lives are just as worth protecting as anyone else’s. I also think that if Palestinian lives are going to stop being wasted on this conflict, then first Hamas needs to be removed and then the Palestinian people need to be given a real path to a better life (which means a state, economic opportunity, etc). I’ve been accused of supporting a lot of heinous things by a lot of ignorant people, and that has been extremely trying. Like you, I am not a robot either. You are someone I respect, and I do not count you among their ranks. If you have taken such a different view of my words than I had intended, then perhaps it is time for me to step away from this topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/96 "2023-11-07T05:59:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To the contrary; we seem to be the only ones who believe the Palestinian people deserve to be protected > [@Babale](#): > > I think Palestinian lives are just as worth protecting as anyone else’s …unless they’re unlucky enough to live over a Hamas tunnel, or standing next to an ambulance carrying Hamas wounded, that is… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/97 "2023-11-07T06:01:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you have taken such a different view of my words than I had intended Your (and others) first instinct with the ambulance bombing and “refugee camp”\* bunker buster was to make arguments for why it was justified, rather than first condemn. _That_ was the view I got. I know, you’ve condemned settler attacks on the West Bank Palestinians, but you’ve shown very little concern for Gazan civilians, only an abstract concept of “get rid of Hamas is the best protection” - which yes, it is necessary. But not killing Palestinians is the _best_ protection for them, actually. \* yes, I know, now a city not a camp. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/98 "2023-11-07T06:05:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …unless they’re unlucky enough to live over a Hamas tunnel, or standing next to an ambulance carrying Hamas wounded, that is… Is it Israel’s fault that Hamas doesn’t care about the lives of its citizens? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/99 "2023-11-07T06:08:07Z")
Hamas didn’t drop that bunker buster or shoot that ambulance. Those are Israel’s fault. “Why do you _make_ me hit you?” is the rhetoric of the abus_er_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/100 "2023-11-07T06:19:23Z")
I just want to re-iterate - what Hamas did was abhorrent. Bit Israel’s response has been poor. I don’t doubt some of that is ass-covering by Bibi and crew, and I don’t deny some is justified. The boots-on-the-ground part is just fine by me. But some of it is war crime, and that part, we should all condemn out of hand. Not justify, or be legalistic about. Bombing a city of civilians is a war crime. Shooting an ambulance with wounded in it is a war crime. Condemn first, _then_ explain if you must. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=6)