# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/981 "2024-06-11T04:31:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Just to make sure I have this perfectly clear; you’re asking if I would sacrifice a few hundred thousand lives now in order to guarantee the safety of trillions of people for billions of years, and there’s no other catch? Interesting! Let’s try another one? Here’s a button, 🔘, push it and the entire planet is guaranteed peace until the heat death of the Universe. One catch, pushing it also kills every Jew in the world. Still pushing push that button? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/982 "2024-06-11T04:34:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I said _Palestinians_. > > Are you conflating all Palestinians with Hamas? You’re the one defending Hamas as liberation fighters and accusing Israel of “oppression” for trying to defeat them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/983 "2024-06-11T04:35:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Here’s a button, 🔘, push it and the entire planet is guaranteed peace until the heat death of the Universe. One catch, pushing it also kills every Jew in the world. Still pushing push that button? My response is the same question as before. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/984 "2024-06-11T04:36:13Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Interesting! > Let’s try another one? > Here’s a button, 🔘, push it and the entire planet is guaranteed peace until the heat death of the Universe. One catch, pushing it also kills every Jew in the world. Still pushing push that button? This is how extremism works, how atrocities flourish. Step 1: Convince people to adopt “the ends justify the means” moral systems. Step 2: Convince them you have a button. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/985 "2024-06-11T04:38:18Z")
Cool! Now STOP FUCKING SAYING YOU DON’T APPROVE OF GENOCIDE. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/986 "2024-06-11T04:38:41Z")
If I approved of genocide, then Banquet\_Bear and I would be in agreement. Fortunately, your button does not exist, so there is no danger of my or anyone else’s pressing it, because if it did, not pressing it would be an act of unimaginable evil. Every single instance of human suffering that would ever occur to anyone anywhere from that moment on would be my fault because I refused to sacrifice some for the good of all. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/987 "2024-06-11T04:48:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’re the one defending Hamas as liberation fighters …I literally called them _terrorists_. I said Saw was a terrorist, and so are Hamas. I made a distinction between the actions of the terrorists and the rebellion. Both fight to liberate from the occupation. Both have the same _cause_. The cause in itself doesn’t dictate if something is morally justifiable. Its independent of that. I’ve said it before that Israel have the right to defend themselves. But so do Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza. And there are ways of defending yourself that I would consider morally justifiable. Those ways don’t include the slaughter of innocents by Hamas, nor does it include the slaughter of innocents by the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/988 "2024-06-11T04:57:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I literally called them _terrorists_. I said Saw was a terrorist, and so are Hamas. The fact that this has gotten so abstract that we’re now arguing about Star Wars and magic eternity buttons is laughably tragic, but in any event you’re still wrong. The Empire is comically and unambiguously far more evil than you seem to think even Israel is. It is literally run by evil wizards and Space Nazis who blow up planets for fun. Nothing the Partisans ever did comes anywhere close to the scourging of Mandalore and they are in no way comparable to Hamas, and I can’t think of a single example of anything they did in the canon that wasn’t justified. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Those ways don’t include the slaughter of innocents by Hamas, nor does it include the slaughter of innocents by the IDF. When Israel kills civilians, it’s an error. When Hamas kills civilians, it’s by design. That’s the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/989 "2024-06-11T05:03:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The fact that this has gotten so abstract …was this you? > [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, we’ve already established that under your worldview you’re supposed to be a kitchen slave in the mansion of some Japanese duke, so I don’t expect you to agree that the French were worth saving either. Because you can’t get more _abstract_ than that. The analogy I used here was a simple one, that played into the cartoonish view of “good and bad” that you buy into. You could just admit that yes, I did call Hamas terrorists and call it a day. > [@Smapti](#): > > When Israel kills civilians, it’s an error. > [@Lavender](#): > > Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. According to the sources, this was because, from what they regarded as an intelligence standpoint, it was easier to locate the individuals in their private houses. Additional automated systems, including one called “Where’s Daddy?” also revealed here for the first time, were used specifically to track the targeted individuals and carry out bombings when they had entered their family’s residences. > **[‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/)** > > The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal. This isn’t an error. This wasn’t a mistake. It was a deliberate, calculated decision that these civilian casualties were _acceptable_. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/990 "2024-06-11T05:30:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and if a terror organization were holding four hostages in two apartments in a residential area populated by civilians in downtown San Francisco Under no curcumstance should an operation risk more civilian deaths, because the government’s express mandate is to provide “equal protection” to all under its jurisdiction. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > so the IDF wouldn’t have cleared the streets of civilians before commencing the operation or given advance warning of this attack specifically. > > [GIF: You do get how that’s worse, right?] You said human shields weren’t used, I described uses of human shields. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The ICRC went to all the trouble of collecting what are considered [the Customary IHL rules that apply to everyone, regardless of what paper they signed](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule14). Thank you for the link. I misunderstood, or rather was misinformed as to this rule. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/991 "2024-06-11T05:32:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because you can’t get more _abstract_ than that. I described real consequences in the event that the US heeded your advice and refused to go to war with Japan. You brought up evil wizards and men with robot legs. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/992 "2024-06-11T05:40:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Fortunately, your button does not exist … Don’t you mean unfortunately? I mean you are the one who thought it would be a good idea to use it. New analogy. Its late 1960s New York. New York police have been harassing black residents, and racial tension is high. It reaches a breaking point when a handfull of black panthers break into the home of the Chief of police and kill 4 members of his family and kidnapping his son. In retaliation the police firebomb Harlem, 4000 Harlem residents have their home destroyed in the fire with at least 120 deaths. and another 280 residents suffer severe burns, but are refused medical attention. Are the police the good guys? (note this analogy doesn’t account for the engineered famine which adds a whole 'nother level of immorality but is hard to fit in. Finally in terms of using WW2 as an analogy you have to understand that war has changed since then. The total war of WW2 is not longer seen as morally justifiable with more precise munitions. If Ukraine somehow managed to turn Moscow into 1945 Dresden, it would be a war crime even though their goal is true. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/993 "2024-06-11T05:47:11Z")
Not like it didn’t actually happen, > **[1985 MOVE bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing)** > > The 1985 MOVE bombing, locally known by its date, May 13, 1985, was the destruction of residential homes in the Cobbs Creek neighborhood of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States, by the Philadelphia Police Department during a standoff with MOVE, a black liberation organization. Philadelphia police dropped two explosive devices from a helicopter onto the roof of a house occupied by MOVE. The Philadelphia Police Department allowed the resulting fire to burn out of control, destroying 61 prev ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/994 "2024-06-11T05:59:40Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Don’t you mean unfortunately? I mean you are the one who thought it would be a good idea to use it. The way it was described I’d have to be psychotic not to - a chance to guarantee peace and happiness for more human beings than have ever existed in exchange for the sacrifice of an unfortunate few is an easy one to make. You may as well ask me if it’s wrong to shoot someone to stop them from launching a nuclear strike. Hell, if the cost of pressing the button was that I would die instantly, then as much as I’m opposed to suicide and unwilling to risk my life for others, the only moral choice would be to press it. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Are the police the good guys? No. Both in your hypothetical and (unfortunately) in general. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If Ukraine somehow managed to turn Moscow into 1945 Dresden, it would be a war crime even though their goal is true. That one I’m going to have to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/995 "2024-06-11T06:02:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No. Both in your hypothetical and (unfortunately) in general. But they were just trying to liberate Harlem from the Black Panthers. Any destruction was the Black Panthers fault. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/996 "2024-06-11T06:32:37Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But they were just trying to liberate Harlem from the Black Panthers. In your scenario the Black Panthers are not the lawful government of Harlem, they’re a gang. There is absolutely no reason to use military force to arrest a couple of people. Hamas is the lawful government of Gaza, and Israel can’t just arrest its leaders, because the Gazan government shoots at them any time they come near. Lastly, the NYPD are police, not military. Their ostensible purpose is to uphold law and order (not that they’re ACTUALLY interested in that as much as they are in making money and putting themselves above the law), not to capture and hold territory. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/997 "2024-06-11T06:47:05Z")
Just noting that thinking a righteous cause justifies the means is exactly what hardcore far right Christian conservatives think. As with your previous opinions on the police, Smapti, the fact that you echo them should be a cause for reflection, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/998 "2024-06-11T06:48:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Just noting that thinking a righteous cause justifies the means is exactly what hardcore far right Christian conservatives think. Yes, they do think that. They’re objectively wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/999 "2024-06-11T06:52:25Z")
But they obviously don’t think so, though. That’s the point? And just to ask: do you think there was a way for Israel to respond to the October attack that would have resulted in lower total casualties than we have now on both sides? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1000 "2024-06-11T06:59:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Thank you for the link. I misunderstood, or rather was misinformed as to this rule. No worries, happy to help educate the educable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=51)