# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1001 "2024-06-11T07:03:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > MrDibble claiming that Israel is obligated to obey treaties When did I say anything like that? What I’ve been pointing out is _why_ Israel is a bad actor. Not inventing authority we all agree the ICJ and UN don’t have. I haven’t said Israel _has_ to do anything. Just saying that it is a fascist racist genocidal terror regime when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1002 "2024-06-11T07:06:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > do you think there was a way for Israel to respond to the October attack that would have resulted in lower total casualties than we have now on both sides? Not really. If anything, Israel holding itself back has caused the conflict to stretch out for far longer than it needed to. If they hadn’t held back this war would have been over within a week. > [@MrDibble](#): > > When did I say anything like that? Right here; > [@MrDibble](#): > > Whether they’ve signed papers doesn’t make their crimes not crimes. And here; > [@MrDibble](#): > > Idiots with no clue about [how customary IHL works](https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/icty/icty.html) shouldn’t try and use it to prop up barbarity when way smarter people than them covered that loophole ages ago. > > Clearly, if you think “they didn’t sign” has been any kind of excuse for a while now. That ship sailed in 1993. > Like I told that dumb motherfucker Smapti, the international community aren’t the gullible idiots he would like them to be, and addressed this “but we didn’t sign” excuse decades ago. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Not inventing authority we all agree the ICJ and UN don’t have. If we agree they have no authority, then let’s stop pretending like the things they say are worth any more than the opinion of Joe Schmoe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1003 "2024-06-11T07:11:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Right here; > [@Smapti](#): > > And here; So, not at all, then. Customary IHL isn’t a _treaty_, dumb motherfucker. It’s merely what the civilized world has agreed is _ **right** _. A _moral_ judgement. One Israel\* has absolutely failed. \* “…and Hamas!” “Yes, them too.” There, said it for you so you don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1004 "2024-06-11T07:12:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Customary IHL isn’t a _treaty_, dumb motherfucker. It’s merely what the civilized world has agreed is _ **right** _. A _moral_ judgement. If it’s just a moral judgement with no force of law, then they can’t possibly have committed “crimes” by not adhering to it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1005 "2024-06-11T07:20:07Z")
They committed crimes. The ICRC is not the ICJ. That’s related to the moral judgment but neither is dependent on the other. Israel is a fascist, racist, colonialist oppressor state. Netanyahu and Gallant are also wanted war criminals. Both of these are true, but the former doesn’t depend on the latter and was true even before October last year. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1006 "2024-06-11T07:21:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Allies were the just party in that war Just like the police were the just party when BLM was happening, right, bootlicker? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1007 "2024-06-11T07:23:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They committed crimes. According to a treaty they haven’t signed and a kangaroo court run by a man who has been campaigning against Israel for half a century. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Israel is a fascist, racist, colonialist oppressor state. Israel is a liberal democracy that respects freedom of speech and religion, whose current government is shit and is on the way out. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Just like the police were the just party when BLM was happening, right, bootlicker? Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1008 "2024-06-11T08:03:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > According to a treaty they haven’t signed No, according to the customs of _civilized_ nations. > [@Smapti](#): > > kangaroo court Yeah, kangaroo courts are usually set up by international bodies 🙄 Was it a kangaroo court when [Ben Ferencz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz#Nuremberg_trial_prosecutor) was advocating for it? > [@Smapti](#): > > a man who has been campaigning against Israel for half a century. Sorry, not sure who you’re talking about here. ICC Judge President Akane isn’t a man, Chief Prosecutor Khan has only been that since 2021 (and is only 54, so good on him for rightfully realising Israel is terrible at age 4), not sure who else you could be talking about. > [@Smapti](#): > > Israel is a liberal democracy that respects freedom of speech Ha ha ha ha. Smapti’s a comedian. Hey, Mr. Comedian, go to Tel Aviv and [wave a Palestinian flag around](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/09/israel-security-minister-bans-palestinian-flag-flying-in-public), then come and tell us how Israel respects freedom of speech. > [@Smapti](#): > > Wrong. Sure. That _wasn’t_ you [licking boots](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2553) in the various Ferguson and BLM threads… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1009 "2024-06-11T08:14:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure. That _wasn’t_ you [licking boots](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2553) in the various Ferguson and BLM threads… Yeah. That was me. Ten years ago. I was wrong then and I’ve said so many times. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Hey, Mr. Comedian, go to Tel Aviv and [wave a Palestinian flag around](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/09/israel-security-minister-bans-palestinian-flag-flying-in-public), then come and tell us how Israel respects freedom of speech. I imagine I’d get about the same response as if I marched down Pennsylvania Avenue with a Nazi flag in 1943. Your point? > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, according to the customs of _civilized_ nations. The Jews are barbarians now. So sayeth MrDibble. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Was it a kangaroo court when [Ben Ferencz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz#Nuremberg_trial_prosecutor) was advocating for it? It was a good idea once. Unfortunately the UN recognized Israel’s right to exist once and has spent their time since trying to claw it back. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1010 "2024-06-11T08:15:13Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Finally in terms of using WW2 as an analogy you have to understand that war has changed since then. The total war of WW2 is not longer seen as morally justifiable with more precise munitions. If Ukraine somehow managed to turn Moscow into 1945 Dresden, it would be a war crime even though their goal is true. What the fuck? If Ukraine got access to a bigass bomb and had reason to believe that using it on the Russian capital would make Russia surrender (as opposed to glassing Ukraine, which would be the more likely outcome and the actual reason for Ukraine not to launch a massive strike on Moscow), they’d definitely be justified in launching it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1011 "2024-06-11T08:22:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Under no curcumstance should an operation risk more civilian deaths, because the government’s express mandate is to provide “equal protection” to all under its jurisdiction. …nearly 300 dead, over 600 wounded. Just because it wasn’t under their jurisdiction doesn’t give them licence drop bombs on a market. > [@Max\_S](#): > > You said human shields weren’t used, I described uses of human shields. No you did not. > [@Wiki](#): > > **Human shields** are legally [protected persons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_persons)—either protected [civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian) or [prisoners of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war)—who are either coerced or volunteer to deter attacks by occupying the space between a [belligerent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belligerent) and a [legitimate military target](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target).[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#cite_note-1) > **[Human shield (law)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law))** > > Human shields are legally protected persons—either protected civilians or prisoners of war—who are either coerced or volunteer to deter attacks by occupying the space between a belligerent and a legitimate military target. The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions. It is also a specific intent war crime as codified in the Rome Statute, which was adopted in 1998. The language of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court prohibits "utilizing t Historic... Nobody was coerced into protecting anyone or anything here. Nor did anyone volunteer. They were just _going about their day_. The location was secret. They were _hiding_. Part of the point of a human shield is that the target is out in the open, using human shields to stop them from being targeted. This wasn’t the case here. If we extend the definition of human shields to include someone buying something from the market, then that extends to everyone living next to a military base anywhere in the world. These are human shields. > [@](#): > > Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor has documented several consistent testimonies regarding the Israeli army’s deliberate use of Palestinian civilians as human shields against their will, and forcing them into dangerous situations to secure and protect its forces and military operations inside the Shifa Medical Complex in. > > … > > Testimonies reveal that Israeli forces used civilians, including patients and displaced individuals inside the Shifa Medical Complex, as human shields, exploiting them to protect their military operations within the hospital, form barriers behind their forces and military vehicles, or send them under threat to residential homes and buildings surrounding the medical complex to evacuate them before the Israeli army raids, arrests some of the residents, and subsequently destroys many of these buildings. > > … > > In another testimony, the wife of a nurse forced by the Israeli army to evacuate the complex towards the city of Deir al-Balah in central Gaza Strip, witnessed the Israeli forces using her husband as a human shield to open doors to sections in the Shifa Medical Complex for several consecutive hours. She stated that her husband’s fate remains unknown, and she fears for his safety. > **[Gaza: Israeli army uses Palestinian civilians as human shields in its...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-israeli-army-uses-palestinian-civilians-human-shields-its-operation-shifa-medical-complex-and-its-vicinity-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Health and Protection and Human Rights; published on 23 Mar 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor More. [https://www.btselem.org/topic/human\_shields](https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields) > **[mde151432002en.pdf](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/mde151432002en.pdf)** > > 1285.01 KB Video > **[Israeli Soldiers Using Palestinians as Human Shield During Raids?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rrfys-Fgc%2F)** > > Israeli Soldiers Using Palestinians as Human Shield During Raids?A Palestinian shop owner claimed in a video that Israeli soldiers used him as a human shield... > [@Smapti](#): > > I described real consequences Nobody understood what the fuck you were talking about. You had to post two length _boring_ paragraphs in an attempt to clarify. You didn’t describe “real consequences.” It was nonsense gibberish about Japanese dukes and mansions and kitchen slaves and the French. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1012 "2024-06-11T09:52:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I was wrong then So, who is just isn’t an inflexible thing? Our perspectives on historic actions can evolve? The very idea… > [@Smapti](#): > > I imagine I’d get about the same response as if I marched down Pennsylvania Avenue with a Nazi flag in 1943. Sure, when America was actually at war with them. In 1939, [not so much.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden) Did you note the date of that article on displaying the flag? Was Israel at war with Palestine a year ago? > [@Smapti](#): > > The Jews are barbarians now Israel = The Jews. So sayeth Smapti. > [@Smapti](#): > > It was a good idea once. Pedal, pedal, pedal… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1013 "2024-06-11T17:47:01Z")
Even more confirmation that Netanyahu and his allies (i.e. the present government of Israel) are, functionally speaking, allies of Hamas; and so is the IDF as long as they’re in charge: > This is far more than a military conflict, and in every facet aside from the battlefield Israel is losing, and losing big… and even on the battlefield they’re not doing all that well. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1014 "2024-06-11T19:10:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …nearly 300 dead, over 600 wounded. Just because it wasn’t under their jurisdiction doesn’t give them licence drop bombs on a market. While you are correct, so was I. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Part of the point of a human shield is that the target is out in the open, using human shields to stop them from being targeted. Respectfully, I disagree. It implies intentional colocation of civilians with military for the purpose of deterrence. This goes towards the principle of distinction. There is no requirement that the military component be “out in the open”. (cite otherwise? some lines in the wiki support my position too) Forcibly embedding your military in a residential area is a form of deterrence, isn’t it? “You can’t attack me because all these innocent people.” Military bases established in peacetime are potentially different if the people are aware of their proximity and continue living there of their own free will. Like if you are a civilian living right next to a base, you ought to know that in case of war your house could get bombed. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1015 "2024-06-12T00:25:35Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Respectfully, I disagree. …it requires the shields to either be _voluntary_ or _coerced_. Neither is the case here. > [@Max\_S](#): > > It implies intentional colocation of civilians with military for the purpose of deterrence. It doesn’t imply that at all. > [@Max\_S](#): > > There is no requirement that the military component be “out in the open”. Its not about a “requirement” to be out in the open. It’s more the fact that the _purpose_ of having human shields is for deterrence. But if the intention is to be hidden, and you don’t want the enemy to know where you are, then the people around you _aren’t_ being used as a deterrence. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Forcibly embedding your military in a residential area is a form of deterrence, isn’t it? “You can’t attack me because all these innocent people.” There isn’t a single person in Gaza who believes that there is anywhere in Gaza that is safe, or that Israel wouldn’t hesitate to attack anyone or anywhere, regardless of those “innocent people.” We’ve seen that play out over and over again. It’s like the ridiculous notion that Hamas were hiding in hospitals because “You can’t attack me because all these innocent people" when the IDF have been systematically attacking and raiding hospitals from the start of the war. There are people who just a few days ago were defending the systematic destruction of Mosques and schools and universities and apartment complexes. They are literally bombing _tents_. The IDF waited for suspects to get home before bombing them. Everyone on the ground knows this. Nobody thinks that “colocating” in civilian areas will prevent the IDF targeting them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1016 "2024-06-12T01:02:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it requires the shields to either be _voluntary_ or _coerced_. Neither is the case here. If they weren’t forced to be there and they didn’t go there on their own, how did they get there? Teleportation? Dimensional gateways? Divine intervention? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1017 "2024-06-12T01:43:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they weren’t forced to be there and they didn’t go there on their own, how did they get there? Teleportation? Dimensional gateways? Divine intervention? …what the fuck are you talking about? They are apartment blocks. People are _living_ there. The IDF bombed a market. They were buying and selling food and clothes. They didn’t voluntarily stand in the way of the hostage-takers and the IDF. Nor were they forced. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1018 "2024-06-12T02:06:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They are apartment blocks. People are _living_ there. Then you acknowledge that Hamas uses places where people live as bases. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1019 "2024-06-12T02:19:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then you acknowledge that Hamas uses places where people live as bases. …just like how the IDF uses places where people live as bases? Sure. And I’m not sure if I would be calling an apartment used to hold hostages a “base.” The discussion was about the use of the term “human shields.” The other people in the apartment block, nor the people in the market or the surrounds, didn’t voluntarily put themselves in between the terrorists and the IDF. Nor were they coerced. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1020 "2024-06-12T02:20:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The discussion was about the use of the term “human shields.” The other people in the apartment block, nor the people in the market or the surrounds, didn’t voluntarily put themselves in between the terrorists and the IDF. Nor were they coerced. Right. Hamas was just using them as human shields without their knowledge, which is somehow better according to Banquet\_Bear’s Big Book of Rules. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=52)