# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1061 "2024-06-12T20:00:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Here is a button. If you press it, 30,000 Gazans will die. > > If you do not press the button, the entire population of Gaza will die. > > Do you press the button? Who is going to kill the entire population of Gaza if I don’t press the button? Also, in this hypothetical is my first name Benjamin? Also, also, > [@Smapti](#): > > The fact that this has gotten so abstract that we’re now arguing about Star Wars and magic eternity buttons is laughably tragic, but in any event you’re still wrong. But not as laughably tragic as the _fa_ in the _antifa_ mask. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1062 "2024-06-12T20:03:03Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Who is going to kill the entire population of Gaza if I don’t press the button? Nobody’s going to kill them. They just drop dead instantly if the button isn’t pressed in a given amount of time. I answered the question when it was asked of me. Feel free to show your lack of moral clarity by refusing to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1063 "2024-06-12T20:04:50Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The point is that while it would be nice if Hamas was considerate enough to find a little isolated spot in the desert and set up a large sign that said bomb here, that isn’t going to happen It would also be nice if Hamas said “Yes” to a total and complete cease fire with Israel withdrawing all their forces from populated areas of Gaza. Instead, they apparently took 12 days to say “No”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1064 "2024-06-12T20:06:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Nobody’s going to kill them. They just drop dead instantly if the button isn’t pressed in a given amount of time. In that specific circumstance I’d be a moral monster if I didn’t press the button. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1065 "2024-06-12T20:08:20Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > In that specific circumstance I’d be a moral monster if I didn’t press the button. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1066 "2024-06-12T20:24:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It would also be nice if Hamas said “Yes” to a total and complete cease fire with Israel withdrawing all their forces from populated areas of Gaza. Instead, they apparently took 12 days to say “No”. Yep Hamas are assholes, already conceded. Still doesn’t mean that the IDF can ethically slaughter Palestinians without remorse. The Trolley problem doesn’t have to stipulate that the guy who tied the people to the tracks was not a nice person. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1067 "2024-06-12T20:53:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you really think that none of the parents/children/siblings/etc. of the thousands and thousands of blameless Gazan civilians already killed by Israeli collateral damage are going to become anti Israel militants in the future? How convinced are you that Israel isn’t creating more fanatics then they’re killing? I asked essentially this same question to an Israeli acquaintance, and his answer was (paraphrasing) _“So what if we are? The Palestinians, all of them - or as near to all as makes no difference - have always hated us, and they won’t stop hating us until we’re all dead or they’ve driven us back to Europe. And since we’re not going anywhere, they’re never going to stop hating us, are they? You think I should worry that the people who already hate us as much as it’s possible for anyone to hate anything might start hating us even MORE? Why? Whether they all join Hamas or whether they don’t, it doesn’t make a difference. Either way, Hamas will always have more foot soldiers and suicide bombers than they know what to do with.”_ Not being Israeli, I won’t venture an opinion on whether his sentiments are either accurate or popular, but that’s the only meaningful data point I’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1068 "2024-06-12T20:56:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Here is a button. Nah man > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is how extremism works, how atrocities flourish. > > Step 1: Convince people to adopt “the ends justify the means” moral systems. > Step 2: Convince them you have a button. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1069 "2024-06-12T21:30:29Z")
If he’s right, then there’s no point to Israel’s current military operation – Hamas cannot be defeated without genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1070 "2024-06-12T21:34:06Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Not being Israeli, I won’t venture an opinion on whether his sentiments are either accurate or popular, but that’s the only meaningful data point I’ve got. It’s kind of impressive, in a way, that somebody who is presumably a reasonably well informed news consumer, with essentially unlimited opportunities to learn about all sorts of Israeli and Palestinian perspectives over the course of a conflict that’s been violently raging for the last eight months or so, nonetheless regards one conversation with one Israeli acquaintance as “the only meaningful data point [he’s] got”. I mean, this is some hadith-authentication-level rigor about the necessity of direct personal witness to establish reliable testimony that you’ve got going on here. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1071 "2024-06-12T21:37:25Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > I asked essentially this same question to an Israeli acquaintance, and his answer was (paraphrasing) _“So what if we are? The Palestinians, all of them - or as near to all as makes no difference - have always hated us, and they won’t stop hating us until we’re all dead or they’ve driven us back to Europe. And since we’re not going anywhere, they’re never going to stop hating us, are they? You think I should worry that the people who already hate us as much as it’s possible for anyone to hate anything might start hating us even MORE? Why? Whether they all join Hamas or whether they don’t, it doesn’t make a difference. Either way, Hamas will always have more foot soldiers and suicide bombers than they know what to do with.”_ > > Not being Israeli, I won’t venture an opinion on whether his sentiments are either accurate or popular, but that’s the only meaningful data point I’ve got. The fact the IDF isn’t facing a Hamas force of a million or more says that’s a gross simplification to justify their own apathy (at best). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1072 "2024-06-12T21:41:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If he’s right, then there’s no point to Israel’s current military operation – Hamas cannot be defeated without genocide. Convenient, that. The Palestinians are pre-defined as beings who all intrinsically hate Israelis for nothing other than the mere fact of their existence, irrespective of what Israelis are doing or not doing with regard to Palestinian rights and lands. So that automatically eliminates any moral imperative for Israelis to recognize any Palestinian rights or claims, because nothing they do or don’t do can possibly make any difference to the essential fact of the Palestinians’ hatred of them. So the Israelis are officially off the hook, ethically speaking, and can do whatever they want, and all the blame for anything they do rests with the Palestinians themselves because of their completely spontaneous innate ineradicable hatred of Israelis. Mm-hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1073 "2024-06-12T22:33:17Z")
I’ll re-up what Israel should have done (and still should do), which I’ve posted a few times before: > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4040): > > Great tweet on what Israel should have done after Oct 7th: > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/AmiDar/status/1775275072544297191?t=jWQJv1z1SpI-_WZ-MR1WAQ&s=19) > > "So what other options did Israel have after October 7th? There are many possible answers, which were clear from the beginning. You may disagree with some or all of this, but six months later, and after all of the most recent disasters, I believe even more strongly that this was the way to go: > > 1. First, stop and think. Even for just a few days. Don’t react _exactly_ as always, and exactly as Hamas expected and wanted. Don’t give them what they want. It’s Gaza. Hamas is not leaving. A response can wait a few days. > > 2. Take a moment to mourn, grieve, sit shiva together (after securing the border, of course). > > 3. Make the hostages the #1 priority and get them back _whatever_ it takes. A victory for Hamas? Of course. But life is more important. > > 4. Use that pause to focus the world’s attention—for more than one day—on what Hamas did. Shame and isolate them the way ISIS was shamed and isolated. > > 5. Make it clear that in whatever war or campaign comes next, protecting civilians will be a priority, and _act_ that way. (Don’t block all aid, use only precision weapons, don’t bomb civilian infrastructure, warn the soldiers that any shenanigans will be punished, etc.) > > 6. Separate the Palestinian people from Hamas’s leadership by reiterating a commitment to a real two-state solution (yes, I know (!) that Netanyahu and this government would never do that. I am simply stating what would have been the right thing to do). > > 7. Go after Hamas methodically, surgically, financially, with much of the world behind us. (For example, using drones and helicopters, no armed man walks the streets of Gaza again until all hostages are released.) > > 8. Clamp down on the Jewish extremists in the West Bank. Make it clear that you will not allow them to open another front. Arrest as many as necessary. > > 9. Explain to the Israeli public, again and again, exactly why you are doing all this. Why there is great strength in restraint. That the goal is to prevent this from ever happening again. But that this will take heart and brains, and not just muscle. > > 10. Speak softly. No need to make big empty threats when you have so much power. > > This would have been a start. One can wish. And to all those, especially non-Israelis, who will call me “naive,” are you happy so far with the results of your “only way?” Come on." And more – for justice and retribution, Israel should have done this: > **[Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre)** > > Operation Bayonet (Hebrew: מבצע זעם האל, romanized: Mivtza Za'am Ha'el, lit. 'Operation Wrath of God') was a covert operation directed by Mossad to assassinate individuals they accused of being involved in the 1972 Munich massacre. The targets were members of the Palestinian armed militant group Black September and operatives of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO). Authorised by Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir in the autumn of 1972, the operation is believed to have continued for ove... and this: > **[Killing of Osama bin Laden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Osama_bin_Laden)** > > On May 2,\[a\] 2011, Osama bin Laden, the founder and first leader of the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda, was shot and killed at his compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad by United States Navy SEALs of SEAL Team Six (also known as DEVGRU). The operation, code-named Operation Neptune Spear, was carried out in a CIA-led mission, with the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) coordinating the Special Mission Units involved in the raid. In addition to SEAL Team Six, participating units... Israel (and the US) has gone after the perpetrators and planners of terrorism before, without killing thousands upon thousands of civilians. It can be done. It wouldn’t be easy, but it’s not impossible. There was no internet, social media, and ubiquitous cameras in the 70s, and they got it done then. That’s what Israel should have done, and still should do. Not mass carnage, both fulfilling Hamas’s plan and creating thousands upon thousands of more anti-Israel fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1074 "2024-06-12T22:36:24Z")
So do exactly what they have done, but with magic bullets that pass harmlessly around civilians. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1075 "2024-06-12T22:36:50Z")
No, this is very, very different than what they did. For someone who supposedly dislikes Netanyahu and the extreme right, you have an awful lot of faith in their skill, competence, and goodwill in their management of the war in Gaza. These are the same buffoons who left their country wide, wide open to the Oct 7th attacks because their attention was focused on protecting criminals in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1076 "2024-06-12T22:40:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, this is very, very different than what they did. And yet; > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4040): > > Make the hostages the #1 priority and get them back _whatever_ it takes > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4040): > > no armed man walks the streets of Gaza again until all hostages are released. And you propose that Israel do whatever it takes and gun down every armed man in the street wirhout causing any collateral damage. Yep. Magic bullets. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1077 "2024-06-12T22:41:21Z")
That’s not what was proposed. It’s hard for people (like yourself) who blindly worship buffoons like Netanyahu to see nuance and complexity in issues like this (along with the entire context), but I trust most Dopers understand what I’m getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1078 "2024-06-12T22:42:21Z")
I’m not sure you even know what you’re getting at. > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4040): > > Go after Hamas methodically, surgically, financially, with much of the world behind us This was NEVER going to happen. “Much of the world” has NEVER been behind Israel and never will. There’s no scenario where the UN doesn’t start dropping condemnations on Israel the second they exercise the rights you claim to believe they have. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1079 "2024-06-12T22:43:24Z")
You wouldn’t get it – it dares to challenge the expertise of your idol Bibi. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1080 "2024-06-12T22:45:42Z")
Of course. Israel’s actions have nothing to do with anyone’s opinion of Israel. Because your great love Bibi is just a misunderstood hero for humanity. Only anti-Semites dare think negatively of him and his great deeds! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=55)