# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1121 "2024-06-13T11:15:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > @Babale, I asked you before but you didn’t answer - how many anti Israel militants do you think the IDF is creating? Do you really think that thousands upon thousands of Gazan civilian deaths aren’t creating future terrorists? > > Do you really think letting Hamas control Gaza, including the education system, isn’t creating all the terrorists they need? > > We didn’t make peace with Egypt or Jordan or any of the other countries that invaded us over and over and over again by saying “Oh no, if we kill any of them, their families will _never_ make peace with us!”. > > Peace with the Palestinians won’t come from us being so nice to them that they decide they actually love us. It will come when they understand that a single state Palestine will _never happen_, and move on to building up the half they _can_ get rather than trying to fight for the whole pie again and again and again and again and again and again. And again. And again. And again and again and again and again and again. > > Eventually, enough is fucking enough. > > What scares me much more than people angry that their relatives died is people who are shown that militancy works, terrorism works, and that if they refuse to build Palestine into a separate state but instead keep attacking Israel again and again and again, then eventually the international community will feel _so bad for them_ that they’ll swoop in and destroy Israel. > > THAT is what will (and has been) create a Forever War. So long as the people in control of the Palestinians continue to believe that terrorism plus whining when Israel retaliates is a valid path to eliminating Israel and creating a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”, they _will_ continue to do exactly what they have been doing since 1973, when the Arab countries gave up on militarily destroying Israel. You’re acting like there’s a binary choice - what Israel is doing now, or Hamas rules Gaza. But that’s not the choice - Israel is fucking this up and not on a path towards defeating Hamas. So not only is Israel losing, but they’re making more terrorists at the same time. Israel is killing its present and future, all because Netanyahu is in charge and refuses to make any plan that’s not specifically designed to keep him in power. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1122 "2024-06-13T11:23:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re acting like there’s a binary choice - what Israel is doing now, or Hamas rules Gaza. But that’s not the choice - Israel is fucking this up and not on a path towards defeating Hamas. So you keep saying. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So not only is Israel losing, but they’re making more terrorists at the same time. Israel is killing its present and future, all because Netanyahu is in charge and refuses to make any plan that’s not specifically designed to keep him in power. OK, cool take. I disagree. I think you’re vastly overestimating Netanyahu’s control and influence. We’ve been round and round this debate and I don’t see much point in getting into it again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1123 "2024-06-13T11:25:39Z")
Let’s revisit in a few months. See if this plan has actually made things better for anyone at all aside from Netanyahu and Sinwar. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1124 "2024-06-13T14:07:58Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > What kind of brain damage causes one to not understand that eliminating the nation state of Israel is not killing all Jews? We only take Hamas at their word when they’re advocating for genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1125 "2024-06-13T14:32:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > What kind of brain damage causes one to not understand that eliminating the nation state of Israel is not killing all Jews? Well, I see we’re done pussyfooting around the agenda of the pro-Hamas crowd. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1126 "2024-06-13T15:19:45Z")
Those statements by Gray and Butler are pretty dumb, IMO, and largely harmful to humanitarian efforts. Hamas and Hezbollah are not interested in living side-by-side, peacefully, with Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1127 "2024-07-01T01:18:47Z")
…from +972 Magazine. > [@](#): > > Mahajneh, a Palestinian citizen of Israel, was initially approached by Al Araby TV, which was seeking information about Muhammad Arab, a reporter for the network who was arrested in March while covering the Israeli siege of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. > > … > > Soldiers dragged out the detained journalist with his arms and legs tied, while Mahajneh remained behind a barrier. After soldiers removed his blindfold, Arab rubbed his eyes for five minutes, unaccustomed to the bright light. “Where am I?” was the first question he asked Mahajneh. Most Palestinians at Sde Teiman do not even know where they are being held; with at least 35 detainees having [died in unknown circumstances](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html) since the war began, many simply call it “[the death camp](https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-torture-prisoners/).” > > … > > Mahajneh told +972 that Arab was nearly unrecognizable after 100 days in the detention facility; his face, hair, and skin color had changed, and he was covered with dirt and pigeon droppings. The journalist had not been given new clothes for nearly two months, and was only allowed to change his pants for the first time that day because of the lawyer’s visit. > > … > > “But the prisoners began refusing to shower because they don’t have watches, and going beyond the allotted minute exposes prisoners to severe punishments, including hours outside in the heat or rain,” Mahajneh said. > > … > > Arab also testified to his lawyer that Israeli guards sexually assaulted six prisoners with a stick in front of the other detainees after they had violated prison orders. “When he talked about rapes, I asked him, ‘Muhammad, you’re a journalist, are you sure about this?’” Mahajneh recounted. “But he said he saw it with his own eyes, and that what he was telling me was only a small part of what was happening there.” > **[‘More horrific than Abu Ghraib’: Lawyer recounts visit to Israeli detention...](https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/)** > > At Sde Teiman, Khaled Mahajneh found a detained journalist unrecognizable as he described the facility’s violent and inhumane conditions. From the latest flash update: > [@](#): > > - At least 60,000 people were displaced from Gaza City and 5,000 from Al Mawasi area of Rafah overnight, according to initial estimates by the Site Management Working Group. > > … > > Attacks on humanitarian aid workers and health facilities continue to be reported. On 25 June, Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) [reported](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/msf-outraged-and-condemns-killing-of-sixth-staff-member-in-gaza/#:~:text=We%20are%20outraged%20and%20strongly,where%20he%20was%20providing%20care) the death of its sixth staff member in Gaza. According to MSF, the staff member was a physiotherapist who was [killed](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/msf-physiotherapist-killed-gaza-while-his-way-work), along with five other people including three children, by Israeli forces while cycling to an MSF clinic in Gaza City. In a 26 June press release, Al Awda Health and Community Association announced the complete destruction of its health centre in Rafah based on aerial and satellite imagery. > > … > > On 27 June, the Israeli military ordered residents of 28 residential blocs (~7.3 square kilometres) in Ash Shuja’iyeh, Al Turkuman, Judaidah, and At Tuffah, all east of Gaza City, to immediately evacuate via Salah Ad Din Road to what the Israeli military defines as a “humanitarian zone” in southern Gaza. > > … > > On 24 June, [Save the Children (SCI)](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gazas-missing-children-over-20000-children-estimated-be-lost-disappeared-detained-buried-under-rubble-or-mass-graves-0) reported that over 20,000 children in Gaza are estimated to be “lost, disappeared, detained, buried under rubble or in mass graves.” Children who have been separated from their parents and are with strangers are particularly vulnerable to violence, abuse, exploitation and neglect, added the NGO. Much more at the link. > **[United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-184-gaza-strip)** > > Settlement expansion continues to shrink the grazing space available for herding communities in Area C. Gaza may have dropped out of the news cycle, but nothing has changed on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1128 "2024-07-02T00:15:51Z")
…breaking: the war on hospitals in Gaza continues. The European Hospital in Khan Younis has been ordered by Israel to move patients, and there are reports of chaos as wards, and tents are being abandoned. There’s nowhere for them to go, of course. Rafah Hospital is caught up in the latest offensive. Nasser barely operational after the last raid a few months ago. Its yet another blatant war crime, a breach of the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law, that will be ignored by the United States and its allies, as the genocide in Gaza continues unabated. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1129 "2024-07-02T23:53:56Z")
…some footage of the evacuation from European Hospital. Seeing patients on gurneys being wheeled through the streets has sadly been normalised. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/h6UQS7IgyDU/maxresdefault.jpg "Gaza's European Hospital in Khan Younis 'virtually empty' after Israel 'evacuation order'") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6UQS7IgyDU) What I’m quoting here has been translated by Google. If any of it is inaccurate, then any corrections appreciated. But here is the Minister of National Security admitting that yeah, all the stories are true: > [@](#): > > Since I assumed the position of Minister of National Security, one of the highest goals I have set for myself is to worsen the conditions of the terrorists in the prisons, and to reduce their rights to the minimum required by law. > > … > > **Everything published about the abominable conditions of these vile murderers in prison was true.** They ruled the prisons without question, and did whatever they pleased. > > … > > The conditions of the terrorists in the prison were reduced to a minimum: we stopped the financial deposits, canceled the canteens for the terrorists, removed the electrical devices from the cells, stopped the terrorists’ promenade, dramatically reduced the terrorists’ stay in the showers, canceled the speaker’s status, stopped the indulgent food menu that was converted into a minimal menu, and in short - We completely stopped the summer camp conditions. > If you doubt any of the reporting on what is happening to Palestinians being detained…Ben-Gvir just tweeted it out. Everything published about the abominable conditions of those held in prison is true. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1130 "2024-07-03T01:31:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …from +972 Magazine. Whatever happened to that petition to close Sde Teiman? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1131 "2024-07-03T01:43:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > **Everything published about the abominable conditions of these vile murderers in prison was true.** They ruled the prisons without question, and did whatever they pleased. 🤣 When I saw that there was yet another Ben Gvir mistranslation making the rounds, I should have known you’d rush into this thread to screech about it. What Ben Gvir is saying is absolute hateful bullshit, but it’s exactly the opposite of what you translated him as saying here. He didn’t say “abominable”, in fact that word means the exact opposite. Ben Gvir’s complaint is that, as reported _in the right wing Israeli press_ that his followers consume, the conditions of prisoners before October 7th were _too good_. One of his frequent complaints was about fresh baked pita being provided to the prisoners daily, which he is bragging about ending. But braindead Hamas supporters like you probably think he’s talking about the dogs trained to rape or similar nonsense. Hey, when I watched the debate and Trump insulted Biden by calling him a “Palestinian”, it occurred to me: you still think protesting Genocide Joe’s genocide supporting policy by not voting for him is a good idea, or did Trump’s hateful rhetoric finally snap some sense into you? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1132 "2024-07-03T01:50:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 🤣 > > …I should have known you’d rush into this thread, pants freshly creamed… @Babale, I don’t agree with you in this thread, but at least I respected you. But the laughing emojis in response to posts, and comments like the above, have ended that respect. If you wanted to convince the people here that the Israelis care about the lives of others, maybe rethink your approach. Right now, you just seem like an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1133 "2024-07-03T01:52:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But braindead Hamas supporters like you probably think he’s talking about the dogs trained to rape or similar nonsense. …oh fuck off. I literally said from the outset I wasn’t sure about the translation. I invited any corrections. You could have just done that. And yes: it’s very clear from the translation that what he was saying was _targeted at his base_. So since you are here: do you believe the accusations that “Israeli guards sexually assaulted six prisoners with a stick in front of the other detainees” is true or not? Do you think they warrant an investigation? Are Palestinian detainees being held by Israel kept in conditions in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law? And if they aren’t, are you going to speak up about that? Or are you just going to keep yelling at me, as if I’m the bad guy? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1134 "2024-07-03T01:52:58Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > If you wanted to convince the people here that the Israelis care about the lives of others, maybe rethink your approach. When someone quotes things completely out of context, over and over again, I begin to rule out stupidity and assume malice. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1135 "2024-07-03T01:55:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When someone quotes things completely out of context, over and over again, I begin to rule out stupidity and assume malice. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What I’m quoting here has been translated by Google. If any of it is inaccurate, then any corrections appreciated. …what the fuck is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1136 "2024-07-03T01:59:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When someone quotes things completely out of context, over and over again, I begin to rule out stupidity and assume malice. And when people use laughing emojis on posts about children being killed, I assume asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1137 "2024-07-03T02:03:46Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > And when people use laughing emojis on posts about children being killed You fucking moron, I reacted to a post that (lied about the way in which) Ben Gvir gloated about mistreating prisoners. Nothing to do with killing kids. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1138 "2024-07-03T02:04:50Z")
Do you need me to go back and find how many posts you’ve responded to with the laughing emoji that did involve kids? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1139 "2024-07-03T02:04:55Z")
Pretty sure he meant this: > [@Babale](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > There weren’t legitimate targets in the refugee camps > > 🤣 > > I guess the people guarding the hostages don’t count because they weren’t kidnapping terrorists, just friendly Gazan AirBNB hosts who kindly let some Israelis stay over for free. > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Words have meaning. > > Unless the word is “refugee camp”, in which case a city in Gaza where people have been living for decades and multiple generations is a “refugee camp”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2024, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1140 "2024-07-03T02:06:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ben Gvir gloated about mistreating prisoners. …is he not? Even with the additional context, is he not gloating about mistreating prisoners? Are Palestinian detainees being held by Israel kept in conditions in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law? And if they aren’t, are you going to speak up about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=58)