# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/101 "2023-11-07T06:20:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bombing a city of civilians is a war crime. Shooting an ambulance with wounded in it is a war crime. Not when those cities and vehicles are being used for military purposes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/102 "2023-11-07T06:21:32Z")
Transporting _wounded_. _Civilians_ living their lives. War crimes. But you go on denying them, don’t expect different. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/103 "2023-11-07T06:21:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hamas didn’t drop that bunker buster or shoot that ambulance. Israel wouldn’t have done either of those things if not for Hamas’ perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/104 "2023-11-07T06:21:58Z")
“Why do you make me hit you” Said to the person _standing next to_ the person who hit you. You don’t actually see _any_ Palestinians as guilt, free, do you? It drips from your every post. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/105 "2023-11-07T06:22:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Transporting _wounded_. _Civilians_ living their lives. Transporting military leaders. Civilians being used as human shields by people who kill them if they try to evacuate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/106 "2023-11-07T06:23:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why do you make me hit you” Well? Why did they? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/107 "2023-11-07T06:24:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Transporting military leaders. If Hitler himself was wounded and the Allies authorized shooting his ambulance, that would be a war crime. > [@Smapti](#): > > Civilians being used as human shields by people who kill them if they try to evacuate. Whataboutism ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/108 "2023-11-07T06:24:47Z")
Did the maker of pastries attack Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/109 "2023-11-07T06:26:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If Hitler himself was wounded and the Allies authorized shooting his ambulance, that would be a war crime. And it would have been a good and just war crime to commit. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/110 "2023-11-07T06:27:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why do you _make_ me hit you?” is the rhetoric of the abus_er_. In 1941 Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. In response the US declared war on Japan, fought them across the Pacific, and bombed them into surrender. Was America “abusing” Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/111 "2023-11-07T06:33:04Z")
Smapti, shut the fuck up. Your assertions that most of the children killed were actually combatants is abhorrent. I don’t have the emotional bandwidth to post anything else tonight but that needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/112 "2023-11-07T06:37:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Your assertions that most of the children killed were actually combatants is abhorrent. I never said “most”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/113 "2023-11-07T06:46:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Why do you make me hit you” ⁢ > > Well? Why did they? ⁢ They didn’t. It is not a thing that can happen. Whoever does the hitting chooses to hit. Even if they are hitting in self defense, they aren’t forced to hit. As MrDibble says, this is the language of abusers. They tell their victims that they made them hit them. That’s MrDibble’s entire point in using that phrase. What’s more, though, is **the the people we are talking about being hit are the Gazan civilians. They didn’t do anything.** Hamas did. And this response is exactly what Hamas wanted. They want to make Israel look like the bad guys. They want to make Gazans hate Israel, because that makes achieving peace that much harder. And this isn’t some unknown thing. It’s literally in the book about engaging in these sorts of things. It’s what every foreign country going to Israel is telling them. And they have the receipts, showing how the same tactic failed them. Every civilian death in this conflict at Israel’s hands is a win for Hamas. It’s fucking stupid not to be doing everything in your power to minimize non-Hamas deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/114 "2023-11-07T06:51:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They didn’t. It is not a thing that can happen. Whoever does the hitting chooses to hit. Even if they are hitting in self defense, they aren’t forced to hit. As MrDibble says, this is the language of abusers. They tell their victims that they made them hit them. That’s MrDibble’s entire point in using that phrase. > > What’s more, though, is **the the people we are talking about being hit are the Gazan civilians. They didn’t do anything.** Hamas did. You’re right. That was a bad rejoinder on my part, but the nonsense about Israel being an “abuser” still doesn’t work. > [@BigT](#): > > And this response is exactly what Hamas wanted. They want to make Israel look like the bad guys. What makes it worse is how many otherwise sensible people are falling for it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/115 "2023-11-07T06:51:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And it would have been a good and just war crime to commit. There are no just war crimes. > [@Smapti](#): > > Was America “abusing” Japan? When they fire-bombed civilians? Yes. When they mass-raped Okinawan and Korean women? Yes. When are Americans going to realise “But…but… Wubblyoo Wubblyoo Twooooo!” doesn’t actually cut any ice anymore? > [@Smapti](#): > > I never said “most”. Sterling defence. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/116 "2023-11-07T06:54:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > And this response is exactly what Hamas wanted. They want to make Israel look like the bad guys. ⁢ > > What makes it worse is how many otherwise sensible people are falling for it. ⁢ No one is falling for anything, though. Israel is choosing to hit. They are choosing a tactic that not only won’t work, but puts the civilians in harm’s way. They are choosing not to let other countries bring in humanitarian aid. And the Gazans aren’t falling for anything. It’s Israel who is killing them. It is Israel who is preventing them from getting out of harm’s way. Israel’s reactions here are not good. I get it, in the same way I understood the reaction after 9/11. I got caught up in it, too. But it doesn’t make it the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/117 "2023-11-07T07:07:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There are no just war crimes So killing Hitler = bad. Gotcha. > [@MrDibble](#): > > When they mass-raped Okinawan and Korean women? Yes. Ah, yes, I had forgotten all about the infamous Joy Division of the US Marines that used captured Chinese and Korean “comfort women” as sex slaves, to say nothing of MacArthur’s infamous Unit 731. Oh, wait, wait, I’m being told that that also was Japan. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/118 "2023-11-07T07:09:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They are choosing a tactic that not only won’t work, but puts the civilians in harm’s way. They are choosing not to let other countries bring in humanitarian aid. Which is why there are the rather serious accusations of genocide. Not to mention the…reputation conservative governments have. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/119 "2023-11-07T07:15:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So killing Hitler = bad. Killing _ **wounded Hitler being transported in an ambulance** _ is bad. As would be killing baby Hitler. > [@Smapti](#): > > Gotcha. Well, you _tried_, anyway. > [@Smapti](#): > > Ah, yes, I had forgotten all about the infamous Joy Division of the US Marines that used captured Chinese and Korean “comfort women” as sex slaves, to say nothing of MacArthur’s infamous Unit 731. We already know you’re great at Whataboutism, no need to keep showing us. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/120 "2023-11-07T07:17:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t actually see _any_ Palestinians as guilt, free, do you? It drips from your every post. Let me be clear about this: the average Palestinian is completely guiltless in this war. Not every Gazan is a Hamasnik, and it’s not their fault their government sucks - many of them weren’t alive when it was voted in, and it wasn’t much of a free election in the first place. I’m sure many of them do their best to avoid Hamas and go about with their lives, and any time noncombatants die it’s obviously sad. But there is nonetheless a war going on and their government started that war. There’s no such thing as a war with no civilian casualties, especially not when Hamas doesn’t value the lives of its citizens and puts its soldiers and weapons in and among their homes and schools. Hamas provoked this war knowing their civilians would be caught in the crossfire, because they are deranged and believe God will reward them for being “martyrs”. Israel has to defeat Hamas for the sake of its own security and that of the Gazan people, because they are not safe under Hamas rule. This is not a hypothetical or a “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” scenario, because if Hamas is not checked the events of 10/7 will be repeated. Israel cannot afford to sit on its hands while Hamas says “Neener neener, we’re on base, it’d be a war crime to tag us.” Israel is doing the best it can to minimize casualties. That’s why they’ve warned people to evacuate and are creating a humanitarian corridor. It certainly isn’t deliberately targeting civilians or trying to kill noncombatant children on purpose. In the long run, the Gazan people will be better off if Israel succeeds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=7)