# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1201 "2024-07-06T00:03:18Z")
The great thing about creating both sides of a conversation is that the other side can be reduced to pretty much a screaming adolescent. You say something, you reply on behalf of the other side, then you “cleverly” demolish the reply you created in the first place. If you want to know what I believe, you can fucking ask me. If you have a response to what I said, I would appreciate it if you quoted me directly instead of responding to the words you put in my mouth, you sanctimonious shithead. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1202 "2024-07-06T00:04:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you want to know what I believe, you can fucking ask me. If you have a response to what I said, I would appreciate it if you quoted me directly instead of responding to the words you put in my mouth, you sanctimonious shithead. You hypocritical piece of shit, you did _exactly_ the same thing not 10 posts back: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So it is o.k. to shoot children if Hamas is nearby? Does the term “innocent bystander” mean absolutely nothing to you, or does your dictionary define “Children” as “Collateral damage”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1203 "2024-07-06T00:07:46Z")
I _asked_ you if my interpretation was correct. Btw, were you not taught as a child that "He did it too!’ was not a suitable defense? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1204 "2024-07-06T00:13:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I _asked_ you if my interpretation was correct. I guess you’re blind as well as stupid, because you missed the question marks on my post? I was also asking you if you agreed that Hamas has solved warfare. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Btw, were you not taught as a child that "He did it too!’ was not a suitable defense? I’m not the one pretending to be offended by my position being summarized. There’s nothing wrong with doing so, but if you’re gonna act all butthurt about me doing it, I’ll happily point out that you do it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1205 "2024-07-06T00:18:41Z")
I am pretending to be offended. @Banquet_Bear is pretending to care about children. How can you, the only one capable of sincerity, even stand to be amongst us? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1206 "2024-07-06T00:19:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And no, I have no reason to blindly trust the assessments of the US administration. Neither should you, neither should anyone else. Not unless the details of those assessments are made public and open to scrutiny. Oh, dear God, you’re _so close_! If only you applied half that scrutiny to statements made by the Hamas Ministry of Health… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1207 "2024-07-06T00:22:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am pretending to be offended. So, and just to be clear, this is a question: you were _actually_ offended by me doing exactly what you did a couple posts earlier? That wasn’t just a rhetorical trick, you _actually_ felt offense about that? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How can you, the only one capable of sincerity, even stand to be amongst us? It’s pretty frustrating, I’m not gonna lie. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1208 "2024-07-06T00:27:53Z")
You keep finding humor in this. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1209 "2024-07-06T00:28:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You keep finding humor in this …what the fuck are you talking about? Go fuck yourself, there is no good faith discussion here. We are done. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1210 "2024-07-06T00:29:08Z")
You are leaving the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1211 "2024-07-06T00:29:34Z")
Welcome to my ignore list; I won’t see your pithy fucking drive by posts anymore. Hardly a loss; I don’t remember the last thread you actually contributed to. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1212 "2024-07-06T00:30:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If only you applied half that scrutiny to statements made by the Hamas Ministry of Health… …I _do_. The information provided by the Hamas Ministry of Health _has_ been scrutinised. They’ve proven to be reliable in past conflicts, more often than not shown to be an undercount. The numbers are used by the UN. They (were) used the the US State Department. They are used by Israel. Many different organizations are painstakingly verifying the numbers, matching the names of dead people to names on the registry. Nobody outside of randoms on the internet and propagandists repeating a talking point think that the numbers coming out of the Hamas Ministry of Health are unreliable. And considering the state of the conflict at the moment, where thousands of people are still missing, buried under the rubble, it is very very likely the numbers are a severe undercount. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1213 "2024-07-06T00:31:04Z")
Not surprising you have done as much research into my posts as you have into what is happening in Gaza. Oh, and you forgot to add “_Now_ look what you made me do!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1214 "2024-07-06T00:34:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Nobody outside of randoms on the internet and propagandists repeating a talking point think that the numbers coming out of the Hamas Ministry of Health are unreliable Sure thing, Buddy Bear. > **[The UN’s Gaza Statistics Make No Sense](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/gaza-death-count/678400/)** > > The actual death toll matters—first, because of the dignity of those killed or still living. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1215 "2024-07-06T00:45:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sure thing, Buddy Bear. > > [The UN's Gaza Statistics Make No Sense - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/gaza-death-count/678400/) …paywalled. But if the article is talking about [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed#:~:text=The%20UN%20has%20denied%20that,so%20far%20been%20fully%20identified.), then the author of that article is just a stupid fucking idiot who doesn’t do their research. > [@The Guardian](#): > > They showed 24,686 dead which appeared to be a downward revision from the figure of about 35,000 which had been reported earlier in May, with 7,797 children and 4,959 women confirmed dead, about half the toll cited in previous reports. But the UN said on Monday that estimated overall death toll remained about 35,000. > > Farhan Haq, a UN spokesperson, said the new smaller numbers reflected those bodies which had been fully identified. The bigger figures included corpses for whom identification has so far not been completed. Haq said it was expected that, as the process of identification continued, the official tolls among women and children would also rise. > > … > > “The ministry of health says that the documentation process of fully identifying details of the casualties is ongoing,” he added. Meanwhile … there’s about another 10,000-plus bodies who still have to be fully identified.” This is _exactly_ what I said. The numbers are going through a verification process that could take months, even years. In the past when this has happened in almost every case the Hamas MOH figure ended up being an _undercount_. In this “war”, with the healthcare system and civilian infrastructure smashed, and thousands of bodies still missing under the rubble, it almost certainly _will_ be an undercount. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1216 "2024-07-06T00:49:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the Hamas Ministry of Health Well, so much for pretending that “the Gaza Ministry of Health” is independent and authoritative and not just a propaganda arm of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1217 "2024-07-06T00:50:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But if the article is talking about [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed#:~:text=The%20UN%20has%20denied%20that,so%20far%20been%20fully%20identified.), then the author of that article is just a stupid fucking idiot who doesn’t do their research. How convenient that everyone who disagrees with you is a “stupid fucking idiot”, a “propagandist”, or an “internet rando”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1218 "2024-07-06T00:52:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How convenient that everyone who disagrees with you is a “stupid fucking idiot”, a “propagandist”, or an “internet rando”. …he’s a stupid fucking idiot not because he disagrees with me, but because it appears he didn’t do his due diligence before he wrote the article. Because you agree it looks like he got things wrong, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1219 "2024-07-06T01:00:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, so much for pretending that “the Gaza Ministry of Health” is independent and authoritative and not just a propaganda arm of Hamas. …fortunately, the numbers are being independently verified and scrutinised, as they have been in every conflict. If they are good enough for the IDF, they should be good enough for you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1220 "2024-07-06T01:14:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because you agree it looks like he got things wrong, don’t you? No, clearly you didn’t read what he objected to, because your article addresses none of his points. The UN originally put out one set of numbers, which included both identified bodies and people who were reported dead but hadn’t had their body identified yet. This number came from one Hamas run Gaza agency. Then they switched to using a different set of numbers that only counted identified bodies, so the total number went down, but (as your article points out) not because fewer people had died, but because the extra people needed to be identified, at which point they would he added to the higher tally. So far, so good. No problem with any of that, and if that had been the objection raised by critics, they’d indeed be wrong. The problem is that _almost the entire difference was made up by women and children_. While it’s theoretically possible that all of the counted-but-not-yet-identified casualties happened to be women and children, it stretches credibility to believe that this is the case. Your own article backs me up; it _says_ that the claims are unfounded, but the numbers it cite agree completely: > [@](#): > > They showed 24,686 dead which appeared to be a downward revision from the figure of about 35,000 which had been reported earlier in May, with 7,797 children and 4,959 women confirmed dead, about half the toll cited in previous reports. But the UN said on Monday that estimated overall death toll remained about 35,000. If there are 35,000 dead, and of those 24,686 are identified, then there are about 10,500 unidentified dead. If the revised totals for women and children are 7,797 and 4,959, and this is roughly half of what it was before the revision, then the number of women and children was revised down by about 12,000. So, the entire discrepancy in numbers is in women and children, and if you expect us to believe that the discrepancy is entirely due to the unidentified dead, then that means you expect us to believe that _all of the unidentified dead are women and children_. That does not seem like a very credible claim to me. It seems like the number of women and children casualties are inflated in order to lend credence to claims that Israel is being indiscriminate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=62)