# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1221 "2024-07-06T01:15:45Z")
…in before Banquet Buddy tells me that doing statistics is literally genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1222 "2024-07-06T03:02:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That does not seem like a very credible claim to me. …why on earth should I care what you find credible or not? The numbers are going through the verification process by both the UN and independent bodies. The numbers are good enough for Israel to use, why should I care what you think? The numbers include children that didn’t even make it to _their first birthday._ That won’t be on any of the registers. It’s an extraordinarily complex process, made even more difficult with the collapse of the Gazan healthcare system, the wholesale destruction of records and buildings, the killing of people administrating those records. There isn’t some big huge conspiracy. Those numbers are the best we’ve got. They are an imperfect measure, but even at the high end of estimates, it is almost certainly an undercount. Not that it matters. Because this is just another distraction from the fact that you can’t provide _any_ evidence that Hamas were running “military operations in schools and hospitals.” Playing distraction doesn’t get Israel off the hook for warcrimes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1223 "2024-07-06T03:08:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because this is just another distraction from the fact that you can’t provide _any_ evidence that Hamas were running “military operations in schools and hospitals.” So I suppose those tunnels were dug by gophers, then. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1224 "2024-07-06T04:14:56Z")
Whatever you say, Banquet Buddy. You’ve proven yourself to be > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > just a stupid fucking idiot who doesn’t do their research. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1225 "2024-07-06T06:59:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So I suppose those tunnels were dug by gophers, then. …after nine months of “war” this is _still_ the best you can do. You can’t show us the evidence of tunnels. You just wave your hands in the air and yell “TUNNELS” and just expect us to believe you. > [@Babale](#): > > Whatever you say, Banquet Buddy. You’ve proven yourself to be You cited a random editorial article written by what appears to be a non-expert in the field that I can’t even read because its hidden behind a paywall. Diving deeper into the numbers, it appears the higher numbers were provided by the Gazan Media Office which included both media reports and those reported by family online, and the lower numbers which were provided by the Hamas Ministry of Health, which only records _deaths registered in hospitals_. The change in methodology happened in November, at the same time the largest hospital in Gaza was under siege, surrounded, and eventually raided, most of the people were kicked out, and people were arrested. So the change in methodology made sense, because many of the places that were recording deaths were no longer able to do so. And laughably, it means the numbers that Babale wants us to trust come _directly from the Hamas Ministry of Health_. Babale wants you to trust Hamas. As I said: this process is complex. And one of the reasons why this is so difficult is because Israel have _targeted_ the healthcare system. There is no big conspiracy here. The numbers are likely to be an huge undercount. Many bodies are still buried under the rubble. Many more deaths wouldn’t be registered at hospitals because in many cases, it would have been a waste of time taking the body there. Because you know that they are sometimes scooping body parts up in plastic bags, right? In those cases, they aren’t going to risk taking them to the hospital (that might be under occupation at the time), they’ll just bury them where and when they can. But again, this is yet another distraction. This all happened in May. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1226 "2024-07-06T07:26:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …after nine months of “war” this is _still_ the best you can do. You can’t show us the evidence of tunnels. You’ve acknowledged the existence of tunnels **multiple times** , you clod. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas claimed they’ve built 500km of tunnels, and you simply believe them? > > The actual text talks about perhaps 5km of tunnels, if that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yes, tunnels exist, but not to the extent that it required the whole-scale destruction of thousands of homes and the forced displacement of well over a million people. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > When Israel provides more fucking evidence than a few videos of empty tunnels then maybe they might have a case. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A handful of empty tunnels filmed last year doesn’t cut it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not disputing the existence of tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1227 "2024-07-06T07:54:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’ve acknowledged the existence of tunnels **multiple times** , you clod. > [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Yes, tunnels exist, but not to the extent that it required the whole-scale destruction of thousands of homes and the forced displacement of well over a million people. …that was my point before, and that was my point _now_. Thats all you’ve got. Tunnels exist: but they don’t explain or excuse the whole-scale destruction of thousands of homes and the forced displacement of well over a million people. The evidence, that you have failed to provide, is that the tunnels are even being targeted. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1228 "2024-07-06T14:11:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Diving deeper into the numbers, it appears the higher numbers were provided by the Gazan Media Office which included both media reports and those reported by family online, and the lower numbers which were provided by the Hamas Ministry of Health, which only records _deaths registered in hospitals_. That’s LITERALLY WHAT I SAID you fucking moron. Again, you absolute cretin, here is what I said, which if you read rather than just instantly screeching “REEEEEE!!! ISRAEL IS EVIL!!! REEEEE!”, you’d have seen is _exactly_ what you just sa8d to “disprove” me: > [@Babale](#): > > The UN originally put out one set of numbers, which included both identified bodies and people who were reported dead but hadn’t had their body identified yet. This number came from one Hamas run Gaza agency. Then they switched to using a different set of numbers that only counted identified bodies, so the total number went down, but (as your article points out) not because fewer people had died, but because the extra people needed to be identified, at which point they would he added to the higher tally. > > So far, so good. No problem with any of that, and if that had been the objection raised by critics, they’d indeed be wrong. You _absolute imbecile_, the problem is that _according to YOUR OWN LINK_, the _entire discrepancy_ is made up by women and children. Which, statistically, makes _no fucking sense_. And again, this is by YOUR link’s numbers. > [@Babale](#): > > They showed 24,686 dead which appeared to be a downward revision from the figure of about 35,000 which had been reported earlier in May, with 7,797 children and 4,959 women confirmed dead, about half the toll cited in previous reports. But the UN said on Monday that estimated overall death toll remained about 35,000. And I explained the issue there too: > [@Babale](#): > > If there are 35,000 dead, and of those 24,686 are identified, then there are about 10,500 unidentified dead. > > If the revised totals for women and children are 7,797 and 4,959, and this is roughly half of what it was before the revision, then the number of women and children was revised down by about 12,000. > > So, the entire discrepancy in numbers is in women and children, and if you expect us to believe that the discrepancy is entirely due to the unidentified dead, then that means you expect us to believe that _all of the unidentified dead are women and children_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1229 "2024-07-06T14:16:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’ve acknowledged the existence of tunnels **multiple times** , you clod I’m sure those were peaceful tunnels for medical use. Just like all the peaceful medically necessary AK-47s, RPGs, and packs of explosives. All medically necessary, until evil Israel destroyed the hospital to get more Palestinian children blood for the Matzah. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1230 "2024-07-06T23:00:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s LITERALLY WHAT I SAID you fucking moron. …your summary omitted two very important details, which I included. Firstly, the identity of the agencies. The agency with the lower figure, which I’m going to assume you don’t have any issues with, was the _Hamas Ministry of Health_. The very agency you were mocking when you started this whole tangent. I’m going to assume you now concede that the numbers provided by the Hamas Ministry of Health are broadly accurate, and if not, can you tell me where we should be getting the numbers from instead? Secondly, you omitted the _why_ the methodology changed. It happened in November. And if you remember back then I was documenting the was on the Gazan hospitals, and even once mentioned that the reporting of casualty numbers would be affected by this. In November, _three_ hospitals were under siege for weeks, including the largest hospital in Gaza at the time, Al Shifa. Then those hospitals got raided, occupied, patients kicked out, doctors and medical teams and administrative staff arrested and disappeared. It was then the the methodology changed. From deaths registered in hospitals to what deaths could be registered in hospitals _along with_ media reports and reports by family online. These were understandable changes in methodology considering that many of the hospitals were either being taken out of action, under siege, or being occupied. All of these things, of course, illegal under international law. So does the change in methodology explain the discrepancy you are complaining about? Maybe. But I’m not an expert, and neither are you. And the best people to address this are those that actually have some familiarity with the figures and not just make baseless speculation. > [@Babale](#): > > Again, you absolute cretin, here is what I said, which if you read rather than just instantly screeching “REEEEEE!!! ISRAEL IS EVIL!!! REEEEE!”, you’d have seen is _exactly_ what you just sa8d to “disprove” me: A link to footage from Israel’s attack on a UNRWA school/refuge just a few hours ago. Spoiled because it contains graphic footage of dead children. [x.com](https://x.com/gazanotice/status/1809633063690711454) In the last 12 hours, Israel have killed 5 journalists in the north and the south. And they bombed the funeral for one of them, killing another 3. We are witnessing senseless massacres every single day. And every day Israel will claim they were “being very careful”, and “only targeting terrorists” and every day Palestinians will share video of dead children, many killed in the most gruesome, painful way. A reminder that Babale doesn’t support a ceasefire. Not even to return the hostages. He thinks this slaughter has to continue. He thinks Palestinians watching their children and families killed in the most horrible ways will somehow turn them into supporters of Israel and lead them to denouncing Hamas. He imagines a fantasy world that doesn’t involve permanent occupation of Gaza and settlements throughout both Gaza and the West Bank. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m sure those were peaceful tunnels for medical use. Just like all the peaceful medically necessary AK-47s, RPGs, and packs of explosives. All medically necessary, until evil Israel destroyed the hospital to get more Palestinian children blood for the Matzah. I’m pretty sure I can find more photos of IDF solders dressing up in Palestinian women’s lingerie than you can of tunnels underneath buildings they’ve destroyed through controlled demolition. > **[Israeli soldiers trespass house in Gaza and display female underwear...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ax8SfwkIM%2F)** > > Israeli soldiers shared a video on social media channels on Monday, showing how they had entered a house in Gaza's Beit Lahia and displayed military equipmen... > **[Israeli soldier wears women’s lingerie at house in Gaza | An Israeli soldier...](https://www.facebook.com/MiddleEastEye/videos/419618567338996/)** > > An Israeli soldier identified as Shay Yifrah is recorded in a video wearing women's lingerie in a Palestinian house in Gaza. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/) > > **[Gaza Shocker: Soldiers Pose With Lingerie; UN Furious, IDF Reacts | Viral](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjN95U2QPRE%2F)** > > A few soldiers of Israel Defence Forces (IDF) have posted some objectionable photos and videos in which they were seen handling lingerie in Palestinian home... > **[Weaponising underwear: Genocide with a semi-pornographic twist](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/4/12/weaponising-underwear-genocide-with-a-semi-pornographic-twist)** > > What should we make of Israel’s obscene social media stunts in Gaza? What’s up with that, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1231 "2024-07-07T00:13:24Z")
@Babale it looks like you have one of two choices: 1. Say something that removes all doubt that you have a shred of humanity left in you, or 2. Have the decency to just shut the fuck up for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1232 "2024-07-07T15:09:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So does the change in methodology explain the discrepancy you are complaining about? Maybe. But I’m not an expert, and neither are you. And the best people to address this are those that actually have some familiarity with the figures and not just make baseless speculation. Ooooh. Now I unserstand. You’re legitimately mentally handicapped. You’re actually incapable of unserstanding basic points of logic. That explains a lot. Sorry, I’ll stop trying to engage with you like I would with a rational adult. In case you missed it in the absolute tidal wave of “REEEEEE! ISRAEL BAD!” nonsense that spewed out of your mouth, _I already said that there is no issue with changing the methodology in and of itself_: > [@Babale](#): > > The UN originally put out one set of numbers, which included both identified bodies and people who were reported dead but hadn’t had their body identified yet. This number came from one Hamas run Gaza agency. Then they switched to using a different set of numbers that only counted identified bodies, so the total number went down, but (as your article points out) not because fewer people had died, but because the extra people needed to be identified, at which point they would he added to the higher tally. > > So far, so good. No problem with any of that, and **if that had been the objection raised by critics, they’d indeed be wrong.** But I understand, you didn’t make it out of 3rd grade (or maybe Statiatics is just an evil colonialist tool of the white oppressors and you rejected it for that reason), so you’re having a hard time with what I am saying there. Can you actually explain what my issue is (you should be capable of that even if you disagree and think my issue is invalid)? I _highly_ doubt you can, because every post you’ve made has _completely_ missed the point. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A reminder that Babale doesn’t support a ceasefire. A reminder that Banquet Buddy wants Hamas to remain in power so that all of this can happen again. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > He thinks Palestinians watching their children and families killed in the most horrible ways will somehow turn them into supporters of Israel and lead them to denouncing Hamas. A reminder than Banquet Buddy is so fucking stupid that he thinks that Palestinians will **stop** supporting Hamas if they are **victorious** in the conflict they launched on Oct 7. A reminder than Banquet Buddy thinks that people become Hamas members because someone in their family dies, rather than _because they believe that Hamas is capable of accomplishing the political goal of destroying Israel_. Of course, Banquet Buddy doesn’t think that _settlers_ becime settlers because they’re so upset over a Palestinian murdering their family members; he is able to recognize reality in _that scenario_, because he understands that settler ideology is based on the belief that if they keep up their strategy they will gain a single Jewish state across the whole territory. But he doesn’t give that same agency to Palestinians, because his oppressor/oppressed framework doesn’t allow him to view brown people as rational actors with agency. The _actual_ way to get people to stop supporting Hamas is to _demonstrate Hamas is ineffective_. That means not giving Hamas what they ask for when they launch a massive terrorist attack, and it means not slobbering all over Hamas’ cock like whenever their actions get Palestinian civilians killed. Maybe if the world held them to a shred of responsibility when they used civilians as human shields, rather than deep throating Hamas by accepting their “Israel bombs babies for shits and giggles” narrative, then Palestinians will stop supporting Hamas. But as long as all they hear from the West is braindead morons like Banquet Buddy defending Hamas and putting all the blame on Israel, _why **should** they, as rational actors with the goal of a single Palestinian state between the river and the sea, **stop** supporting Hamas?_ Hamas’s tactics _are working_. The West is full of Self Hating Westerners ready to fellate Hamas. Clearly, continuing to appeal to them by getting more Palestinian children killed is a winning strategy. At least, that will be the case if international pressure forces Israel not to remove and replace Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1233 "2024-07-07T15:28:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > slobbering all over Hamas’ cock … deep throating Hamas… fellate Hamas Every accusation is a confession… Someone really likes the taste of IOF dick, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1234 "2024-07-07T15:32:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Someone really likes the taste of IOF dick, it seems. …is that supposed to be an insult? I’m straight, but if I ever did end up having gay sex, I certainly wouldn’t have any problem with it being with an IDF soldier. 1. young 2. physically fit 3. middle eastern 4. not a terrorist Sounds pretty much ideal to me ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1235 "2024-07-07T15:56:26Z")
This is where you want to go to after seeing those pictures and videos?? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1236 "2024-07-07T15:58:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > is that supposed to be an insult? So you intended > [@Babale](#): > > slobbering all over Hamas’ cock … deep throating Hamas… fellate Hamas as compliments? I’m sure BB will be glad. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m straight, but if I ever did end up having gay sex, Those are not the only two options. I wasn’t intending the _dick-tasting part_ to be the insult, there (speaking as someone who has tasted his share of dicks in his time) > [@Babale](#): > > Sounds pretty much ideal to me You got 3 out of 4 right, at least… Pity “kiddie-sniping génocidaire” is the ultimate turnoff. . ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1237 "2024-07-07T16:07:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So you intended > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > slobbering all over Hamas’ cock … deep throating Hamas… fellate Hamas > > as compliments? The issue isn’t with the dicksucking, it’s with _whose_ metaphorical dick he chooses to suck. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Pity “kiddie-sniping génocidaire” is the ultimate turnoff. Right, which is why I’m against Hamas dicksucking. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1238 "2024-07-07T16:08:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Can you actually explain what my issue is …I don’t trust you to know what the issue actually is. Because if the actual experts had issues with the numbers, we would be hearing about it. You aren’t an expert. The guy you cited isn’t an expert. There were two sets of numbers, both gathered using different methodology, neither are 100% accurate, both likely to be significant undercounts, both numbers are the best we are going to get in an imperfect world. There isn’t a conspiracy here. Nobody is deliberately inflating any numbers. > [@Babale](#): > > A reminder that Banquet Buddy wants Hamas to remain in power so that all of this can happen again. I don’t want Netanyahu to remain in power, let alone Hamas. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and we can’t always get what we want. October the 7th shouldn’t have happened for a couple of reasons: firstly because it was evil, and a warcrime, and tactic that simply doesn’t work. But secondly, and I know you are going to have trouble acknowledging this, but because Israel fucked up. There were intelligence failure. And communication failures. And strategic and tactical failures. Israel could easily leave Gaza right now, fix all of the things that went wrong on October the 7th, and never ever worry about another border incursion like the last one ever again, because they have total air, land and sea superiority over Gaza, they have complete control of the borders. And Gaza is so smashed up it will take decades to get back to where it was. And the reality is, the only way for October the 7th to ever happen again is either Israel again massively fucks up, or if they deliberately allowed it to happen. > [@Babale](#): > > A reminder than Banquet Buddy is so fucking stupid that he thinks that Palestinians will **stop** supporting Hamas if they are **victorious** in the conflict they launched on Oct 7. A ceasefire doesn’t mean “victory.” It means the hostages go home. It means Palestinians stop getting needlessly slaughtered. > [@Babale](#): > > A reminder than Banquet Buddy thinks that people become Hamas members because someone in their family dies, rather than _because they believe that Hamas is capable of accomplishing the political goal of destroying Israel_. I don’t think that. I think it’s infinitely more complicated than these imaginary scenarios you play out. > [@Babale](#): > > Of course, Banquet Buddy doesn’t think that _settlers_ becime settlers because they’re so upset over a Palestinian murdering their family members; he is able to recognize reality in _that scenario_, because he understands that settler ideology is based on the belief that if they keep up their strategy they will gain a single Jewish state across the whole territory. But he doesn’t give that same agency to Palestinians, because his oppressor/oppressed framework doesn’t allow him to view brown people as rational actors with agency. What is this nonsense about “oppressor/oppressed frameworks?” When have I ever framed this conflict in those terms? > [@Babale](#): > > The _actual_ way to get people to stop supporting Hamas is to _demonstrate Hamas is ineffective_. Do you think that actually matters right now? For starters, this is such simplistic, _basic_ framing. And completely ignores that people are complicated. But one thing is for certain, this certainly isn’t a justification for _war_. > [@Babale](#): > > That means not giving Hamas what they ask for when they launch a massive terrorist attack, Its not about giving Hamas what they want. It’s about getting the hostages home. It’s about ending the daily slaughter of Palestinian civilians. > [@Babale](#): > > and it means not slobbering all over Hamas’ cock like whenever their actions get Palestinian civilians killed. You know, its really sick that you use such crude terminology when you are literally talking about Palestinian civilians getting killed? > [@Babale](#): > > Maybe if the world held them to a shred of responsibility when they used civilians as human shields, rather than deep throating Hamas by accepting their “Israel bombs babies for shits and giggles” narrative, then Palestinians will stop supporting Hamas. The world has condemned Hamas. I condemn Hamas. I want the people responsible for October 7th bought to justice. This narrative that we aren’t holding them responsible is a fiction. It’s just that this war _isn’t_ holding them responsible. This war is simply killing hundreds of Palestinians every week. Its collective punishment. Its ethnic cleansing. Its genocide. And the longer Israel continues, the longer it will be before the hostages get home. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1239 "2024-07-07T16:21:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t trust you to know what the issue actually is. So you’re not even able to say “I understand your objection, let me phrase it as best I can, and here is why I disagree”. Cool. Good example of your lack of intellectual honesty. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But secondly, and I know you are going to have trouble acknowledging this, but because Israel fucked up. Then you’re a huge fucking idiot, because I absolutely think that Israel fucked up - the biggest fuckup since 1973 - and that Netanyahu is personally responsible for Oct 7th and must go because of that. And you’ve clearly never actually read any of my posts, because I’ve been saying that since Oct 8th. Again, another clear example of your lack of intellectual honesty (or perhaps lack of intellect). > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel could easily leave Gaza right now, fix all of the things that went wrong on October the 7th, and never ever worry about another border incursion like the last one ever again, because they have total air, land and sea superiority over Gaza, they have complete control of the borders. This is a pipe dream. Maybe this would be true if Israel left Gaza and blockaded it tighter than ever; but if you expect any rebuilding to go on, it absolutely isn’t, because Iran will supply Hamas with everything they need to do another Oct 7. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the reality is, the only way for October the 7th to ever happen again is either Israel again massively fucks up, Right. But if the plan is to sit and occupy Gaza for the next 100 years, then eventually, Israel _will_ fuck up. It isn’t a sustainable option. Hamas has to be removed so both sides can rebuild without having to worry that one fuckup will launch us into war again. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You know, its really sick that you use such crude terminology when you are literally talking about Palestinian civilians getting killed? I do. It’s _exactly_ at the level of sickness that I think you display when you talk about this conflict, putting all the blame on Israel. I use the crude language for precisely that reason. Civility is not a virtue in and of itself. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The world has condemned Hamas. I condemn Hamas. I want the people responsible for October 7th bought to justice. This narrative that we aren’t holding them responsible is a fiction. And yet, you never do actually hold them responsible. Where is the political pressure on Hamas to stop operating out of civilian areas? Well, first you’d have to acknowledge that this is something _they do,_ and that Israel isn’t shooting kids for shits and giggles. You can’t even take _that_ step. So give me a fucking break, you aren’t holding them responsible for anything. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s just that this war _isn’t_ holding them responsible. It’s _the only thing_ holding them responsible. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This war is simply killing hundreds of Palestinians every week. Its collective punishment. Its ethnic cleansing. Its genocide. Like fuck, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1240 "2024-07-07T16:23:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because if the actual experts had issues with the numbers, we would be hearing about it. We _are_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The guy you cited isn’t an expert. Says you. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There were two sets of numbers, both gathered using different methodology, neither are 100% accurate, both likely to be significant undercounts, both numbers are the best we are going to get in an imperfect world. **none of that is what I contested. You’re too chickenshit to even understand what my argument is, probably because you know you are wrong.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=63)