# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1361 "2024-08-14T13:05:21Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You might want to notice that what I did was change the details on what Smapti said to see if he’s consistent, Sorry, I forgot that you’re a bad faith idiot and took you seriously for a few seconds. My bad, I won’t repeat that mistake. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1362 "2024-08-14T13:13:27Z")
If you’re agreeing with Smapti, who has made it clear he believes Israel has no responsibility at all to protect Gazan lives (or Palestinians in general), you’re demonstrating something about yourself that makes me feel sad. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1363 "2024-08-14T13:16:56Z")
Making long term peace is the only way to protect its citizens, Smaptanyahu. Netanyahu and his allies have been working against this for over a decade, and yet you still support every move they make. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1364 "2024-08-14T13:19:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re agreeing with Smapti, who has made it clear he believes Israel has no responsibility at all to protect Gazan lives When did I say that, now? Israel should do everything in its power to minimize civilian casualties, but it _also_ has a responsibility to protect Israeli civilians, which means ending Hamas. Israel should do so while causing as little damage to Gazan civilians as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1365 "2024-08-14T13:34:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Making long term peace is the only way to protect its citizens, I agree! Unfortunately Hamas has 0 interest in this so they have to be militarily removed, then we can make long term peace with a group that replaces them. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Netanyahu and his allies have been working against this for over a decade, Netanyahu’s allies today are very different people than his allies a decade ago, and he himself had a very different platform then. But I get it, knowing 3 Israeli names is hard enough, actually understanding internal Israeli politics is much more complicated. And I don’t disagree that this situation is Netanyahu’s fault; I just don’t think that most Americans blaming him actually understand what he did. They think he is a hawkish populist and always has been when in fact he is the ultimate opportunist and has championed different platforms at different times. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and yet you still support every move they make. Really? I don’t recall Smapti supporting the Judicial overhaul, or supporting Netanyahu’s legislative tricks that allow him to steal Oct 7th rebuilding funds and send them to West Bank settlements that weren’t even hit, or supporting keeping the Haredim out of the army, or even supporting the idea that we should hold off on elections until Netanyahu’s term ends in 3 years. Unless you have some examples of Smapti supporting those positions, Im going to assume that the claim that he supports every move Netanyahu makes is utter bullshit. In fact, the only thing Smapti seems to support is Israel’s war in Gaza; which is by no means a position unique to Netanyahu. As a supporter of newly elected leader of the newly founded Democrats party (which merged Labor and Meretz) Yair Golan, I DO support Israel’s war to end Hamas’ rule of Gaza, while strongly opposing every one of those other points. The impression I get from Smapti is similar, not that he is a Netanyahu supporter. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1366 "2024-08-14T13:50:19Z")
Smapti refuses to criticize how Netanyahu and his allies are running this war. The idea that the IDF operates without their influence and at least some of their direction is not realistic. This war can’t be won with Netanyahu and his allies in charge. All it can do is more of what it’s doing - shed blood. Israel is not getting more safe and secure because of the war - quite the opposite. And regardless of Netanyahu’s allies over the years, he’s been helping Hamas in Gaza for years because they’re the best allies against two states. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1367 "2024-08-14T13:51:27Z")
If you honestly believe the IDF is doing literally everything in its power to minimize civilian casualties, then I’m afraid we live in such wildly different factual universes that any exchange in ideas is probably pointless. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1368 "2024-08-14T13:56:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And this is why you’re not worth responding to. I _do_ care about Palestinian lives, which is why I want to do things that will change the status quo away from eternal warfare. FWIW, I think you do care. Thus my doubt that Smapti would find support even among the pro-Israeli people in this thread for his sentiment that there is no reason to care about innocent Palestinians. But I’m not really interested in his views. He has demonstrated that he’s a psychopath on this topic, and there’s no discussion to be had. But I would be interested in your views on Bartov’s essay. I see a lot of you in his description of his friends in Israel, and I wonder if you see that too. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1369 "2024-08-14T13:56:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Smapti refuses to criticize how Netanyahu and his allies are running this war. The idea that the IDF operates without their influence and at least some of their direction is not realistic. What you said was: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Netanyahu and his allies have been working against this for over a decade, and yet you still support every move they make. You didn’t say ‘Smapti refuses to criticize Israel’s handling of the war’, you said Smapti “supports every move” that Netanyahu makes. Which, unless you have some examples of Smapti supporting the Judicial overhaul or the religious service exemption, or not having elections, or ANY of Netanyahu’s policies, is utter bullshit. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And regardless of Netanyahu’s allies over the years, he’s been helping Hamas in Gaza for years because they’re the best allies against two states. Netanyahu HAS caused the current situation, I agree. But you are presuming that he has some ideological opposition to a Two State Solution, which I don’t think is true. That’s the side he espouses nowadays because it’s where his base is; some of his actions over the years are consistent with that goal, while others are very much not. And that’s precisely what you’d expect out of an opportunist like him. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you honestly believe the IDF is doing literally everything in its power to minimize civilian casualties, then I’m afraid we live in such wildly different factual universes that any exchange in ideas is probably pointless I agree, which is why I stopped posting in this thread for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1370 "2024-08-14T14:03:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You didn’t say ‘Smapti refuses to criticize Israel’s handling of the war’, you said Smapti “supports every move” that Netanyahu makes. I thought it was pretty clear that he meant that specifically in the context of the war in Gaza, and not his broader political agenda. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1371 "2024-08-14T14:12:20Z")
That’s exactly what I meant. Babale is, with team Smaptanyahu, on the “IDF can do no wrong” side, and thus discussion with them is probably pointless. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1372 "2024-08-14T14:21:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Where are the death camps? Where are the firing squads? Where are the crematoria?.. So Israel isn’t conducting genocide in the same way you would. Got it. On the subject, is anyone else concerned that Smapti has evidently given detailed thought to how he would conduct a genocide? Totally normal behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1373 "2024-08-14T14:21:59Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > FWIW, I think you do care. Thus my doubt that Smapti would find support even among the pro-Israeli people in this thread for his sentiment that there is no reason to care about innocent Palestinians. I don’t know if Smapti said that there is no reason to care about innocent Palestinians (a sentiment I disagree with), or if he was saying that it seems odd to expect an electorate that’s been under attack by another group for decades\* to prioritize the wellfare of people in that group over their own security. And obviously that applies for Palestinians to, I don’t think anyone finds it hard to understand why they might hate Israelis or Jews. I don’t think anyone is saying 'Palestinians should stop supporting Hamas and terrorism because it’s mean to Israelis and Palestinians shouldn’t be mean to Israelis"; the argument always has been that Hamas makes life worse _for Palestinians_. > [@TroutMan](#): > > But I’m not really interested in his views. He has demonstrated that he’s a psychopath on this topic, and there’s no discussion to be had. But I would be interested in your views on Bartov’s essay. I see a lot of you in his description of his friends in Israel, and I wonder if you see that too. I think Bartov sounds like someone who’s never lived through a war before. His complaint basically boils down to feeling like there isn’t enough public expression of sympathy for Palestinians. That’s idiotic. That’s not how Americans talked about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, it’s not how Argentinians talked about the British during the Falklands war, it’s not how Ukranians talk about Russians today, and it’s _certainly_ not how the Palestinians talk about Israelis. He needs to grow up and realize that in the real world, war is ugly; and one of the least important ways in which it is ugly (when compared to civilian casualties, the devastation of cities, etc) is the fact that politicians on both sides of the war say mean things about one another. Overall, he strikes me as _incredibly_ naive. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1374 "2024-08-14T14:25:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Babale is, with team Smaptanyahu, on the “IDF can do no wrong” side, and thus discussion with them is probably pointless. We can discuss what the IDF is doing wrong all day, once we accept the fact that their operation against Hamas is in and of itself legitimate. If you believe that Israel should just tolerate Hamas continuing to exist on its border after Oct 7, then yes, discussion is very much pointless. If you want to pretend that anyone who doesn’t want Israel to immediately pull out of Gaza is a blind and rabid Netanyahu supporter, fine, go ahead; since you’ll have no one serious on the Israeli side to talk to, I guess you can sit around and seethe for the rest of the conflict. That sounds much more “pointless” to me, but you do you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1375 "2024-08-14T14:33:00Z")
For those interested in a slightly less myopic view of the situation: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/05/20/biden-israel-liberals-yair-golan/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/05/20/biden-israel-liberals-yair-golan/) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1376 "2024-08-14T14:36:33Z")
Some choice quotes: > [@](#): > > Democrats in Washington often seem to assume that if only conservative Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could be removed from power, Israel would align more closely with dovish U.S. policy preferences in the Middle East. They misunderstand Israel. The hawkish impulses even at the progressive frontier of Israeli politics show the depth of the Jewish state’s consensus that its security situation is dire. > > … > > Reflecting the overwhelming sentiment of the Israeli public, Golan said Israel’s campaign against Hamas in Gaza “is a just war.” He believes the IDF has done “whatever is possible to lessen the damage for civilians” among whom Hamas hides. He said Rafah — a Gazan city on the Egyptian border that the Biden administration wants to block Israel from invading — should have been seized it early on to cut off Hamas’s supplies. > > … > > The “day after” debate can be confusing, with politicians hedging politically. Golan is refreshingly blunt. “We won’t reach a situation like the United States, after the Second World War, with Germany and Japan” — that is, total defeat of an enemy regime and the construction of a friendly government in its place. “The price for that is too high,” he said. The total victory over the Axis powers involved the killing of many millions of people and ultimately the atomic bombing of cities. > Golan compared the desired end-state in Gaza to the West Bank, where Hamas has a presence but the Palestinian Authority, its rival, runs civil affairs. “Up to Oct. 7, Hamas had 100 percent of sovereignty inside the Gaza Strip,” Golan stipulated. Israel’s war on Hamas has reduced its level of sovereignty to “probably 40 percent.” Perhaps Israel can help stand up a Palestinian Authority government in Gaza, he said, that will suppress the terrorist group’s sovereignty to 20 percent — and then lower. Yair Golan is super Based and 100% correct here. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1377 "2024-08-14T14:37:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think Bartov sounds like someone who’s never lived through a war before. Did you read the essay? He served in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Which one did you serve in? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1378 "2024-08-14T14:37:08Z")
War against Hamas is just. It is not being carried out in a just manner. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1379 "2024-08-14T14:39:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t know if Smapti said that there is no reason to care about innocent Palestinians Given what Smapti said about these children any suggestion about his opinion of their innocence is very much in question. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1380 "2024-08-14T14:40:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > War against Hamas is just. It is not being carried out in a just manner That’s an easy slogan to repeat. Coming up with an actual strategy for urban warfare that doesn’t kill civilians is much, much harder. In fact, I don’t believe it’s possible to effectively fight against an enemy that sets up positions in hospitals and schools without causing significant civilian casualties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=70)