# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1421 "2024-08-15T05:09:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And I think it’s funny that you went to an Al Jazeera link. As for why I clicked it, it wasn’t apparent to me that it’s Al Jazeera until I clicked it (I don’t know who Mehdi Hasan is, and that’s all I could see in the preview). I also was looking for something within the last month or two, to correspond with Bartov’s view that he didn’t think it was genocide until the events of May of this year. All the other links in the first page were older than that, or seemed more general. As I said, I’m happy to watch one you feel is better. (But it will be tomorrow, I’m signing off.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1422 "2024-08-15T05:09:46Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > What I’ve seen so far is Morris focusing exclusively on how many are killed, not on intent or driving them from the land, as the definition of genocide, which is incorrect Then you aren’t listening to Morris, whose point is that Genocide doesn’t mean a high body count, it means trying to drive someone out of the land, which Morris’s point is that Israel is not trying to do. > [@TroutMan](#): > > I don’t believe the IDF, so that might be an irreconcilable difference between us. If you believe that the IDF attacks hospitals for shits and giggles, then you are correct, there is an irreconcilable difference between us. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1423 "2024-08-15T05:13:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you believe that the IDF attacks hospitals for shits and giggles You want a good faith discussion? Then do your part. I believe they attack hospitals as part of a long-term plan to destabilize the Palestinian population and eventually drive them from the land. You obviously disagree. We can disagree on this without making up stupid things like “shits and giggles.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1424 "2024-08-15T05:15:58Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > You want a good faith discussion? Then do your part. I believe they attack hospitals as part of a long-term plan to destabilize the Palestinian population and eventually drive them from the land. Yeah, and that’s called “blood libelous bullshit”. I will ask you the same question I asked BraindeadBear: when this war ends and the Palestinians are not driven from Gaza, will you admit you were wrong, or will you shift the goalposts? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1425 "2024-08-15T05:21:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > and because does anyone really expect Hamas not to shoot an IDF soldier just because doing so might risk harm to a civilian? I think the idea isn’t that the Hamas member would not shoot for fear of hitting a civilian its that by having him go in front he’s the one who sets off the booby trap or ambush and is killed rather than an IDF soldier. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1426 "2024-08-15T05:26:29Z")
If something isn’t a genocide until it’s successful, that doesn’t seem like a useful definition. I’m very hopeful something will happen that prevents it - a change in the Israeli government, international pressure, a cease fire, something. That wouldn’t mean the intent and effort were never there. If you could somehow prove that the intent was never there, that there was no desire to take over the Strip (and West Bank), I’ll admit being wrong. I don’t know how that happens, so this doesn’t seem like a useful avenue of discussion. I make no such requests of you. The IDF human shield discussion has shown that you don’t accept evidence contrary to your priors, so I don’t expect us to agree on a level of evidence where you would admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1427 "2024-08-15T05:31:02Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I make no such requests of you. The IDF human shield discussion has shown that you don’t accept evidence contrary to your priors, so I don’t expect us to agree on a level of evidence where you would admit you were wrong. God, you’re an arrogant fucking prick. Maybe - just maybe - by reading the original Haaretz article in Hebrew and through my knowledge of my own fucking country I am in a better spot than you to make a determination about whether a couple of guys making claims in the paper is enough evidence to conclude these very serious allegations are true or not. But hey, you read it third hand in The Guardian, you’re a fucking expert. If you seriously think Israel is trying to annex Gaza, you’re a very useful idiot and there’s no reason to continue further discussion. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1428 "2024-08-15T05:35:31Z")
I don’t think you are able to look at your country with an objective view. You accept any info that matches your assumptions, and reject any that does not. I will continue to trust Bartov over you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1429 "2024-08-15T05:37:55Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I don’t think you are able to look at your country with an objective view. Whereas through the crystal clear lens of Qatari State Media, your view is perfectly objective! > [@TroutMan](#): > > You accept any info that matches your assumptions, and reject any that does not. I will continue to trust Bartov over you. OK buddy 👌 ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1430 "2024-08-15T05:40:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Whereas through the crystal clear lens of Qatari State Media, your view is perfectly objective! I think you meant any media source that isn’t the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1431 "2024-08-15T05:43:19Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think you meant any media source that isn’t the IDF Thank you for demonstrating so clearly what a biased idiot you are. Since I don’t agree with you that the IDF is intent on genocide, I must be totally in thrall of the IDF and never mind all the times I _have_ been critical. How’d you put it? > [@TroutMan](#): > > You accept any info that matches your assumptions, and reject any that does not It’s amazing how accurately you describe yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1432 "2024-08-15T08:12:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For what it’s worth, I strongly suspect that Babale and Alessan and folks like them have lots of serious criticisms of the IDF conduct of the war, but aren’t willing to share them with outsiders because they see it as not our business, like it’s a family issue. And I kind of understand that. Thanks, but while I do have plenty of serious criticisms of the Israeli _government_ and its management of the war, I mostly have praise for the IDF. I think that, certain obvious exceptions aside, the IDF is been performing excellently under very, very trying circumstances (with some of these circumstances originating from the current Israeli administration). I’ve never been prouder of my country’s military than I have over the past 10 months. But then, I’m an IDF veteran myself, my son is currently serving in the IDF (behind a desk, nowhere near Gaza), and I know plenty of people who have fought in Gaza and are fighting there now. So I supposed my point of view of this conflict is quite different than yours. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1433 "2024-08-15T09:41:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > he was also going to bring home a matching pair of mini-uzis as a surprise gift. Your cite does not specify this detail, and while I am willing to accept that it may be true, I’d ask for a better cite. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1434 "2024-08-15T10:01:56Z")
^ I wrote some criticism of Troutman’s opinion above, but over-spent the time limit for posting with multiple edits. I think, on reconsideration, I will scuttle back under my rock, rather than engage in a situation about which I know little. Good luck to the rest of you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1435 "2024-08-15T15:04:19Z")
Thank you for replying, and very clearly our POVs are different. Do you think the IDF win this war with the present leadership in power? If so, what would that look like? From an outsider’s perspective, it seems impossible that Netanyahu would allow any sort of victory (or anything, really, that would end the war). Further, even a clear victory seems, from an outsider’s perspective, like it would accomplish very little long-term as long as the settlers and other Israeli extremists continue to violate human rights in the WB. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1436 "2024-08-15T15:35:25Z")
You lost me here for a minute, I thought the discussion was about whether or not what is happening is genocide. Are you saying that only a Zionist can determine if what is happening in Gaza is genocide, or did I lose something in translation? Adding to my confusion is the Wiki page you linked to shows Morris wrote a book about Turkish genocide of Christian minorities. PS, not looking to relitigate the is this a genocide question, or trying for a gotcha ya moment. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1437 "2024-08-15T16:26:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Thank you for demonstrating so clearly what a biased idiot you are. Since I don’t agree with you that the IDF is intent on genocide, I must be totally in thrall of the IDF and never mind all the times I _have_ been critical. I think that the issue is that there appears to be two media narratives about what is going on in Gaza. There is the narrative that comes from the IDF the Israeli government Israeli news sources, and certain right wing US sources that says that the IDF is taking great pains to avoid civilian causalities and is fully justified in all of the actions that they are taking and that any deviations from this are lone actors who are being swiftly punished. Then you have the narrative of everyone else who says that Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe the vast majority of the population displaced, a total collapse of the healthcare system, and little or no access to food and clean water, and Israel making decisions that exacerbate the situation. As to which narrative is correct, the Israeli government, news media and IDF has a clear motive to try to spin the news in their favor, and the US right wing news are known their biased coverage. The rest of the world media, UN, and humanitarian organizations would seem to have less reason to shade the truth. The pro-IDF side claims is that they do so because of rampant antisemitism, but believing that antisemites control the global media and and the UN with no exceptions is about as believable as saying the Jews do. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1438 "2024-08-15T16:33:25Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Then you have the narrative of everyone else who says that Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe the vast majority of the population displaced, a total collapse of the healthcare system, and little or no access to food and clean water, and Israel making decisions that exacerbate the situation. You mean the narrative put out by the Hamas Ministry of Health which is echoed by the media unquestioningly? Often while emitting the seemingly crucial information about who the source is? > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The rest of the world media, UN, and humanitarian organizations would seem to have less reason to shade the truth. They’re getting their narrative from someone who is far from aa neutral source, though. Again, the Hamas controlled Ministry of Health. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The pro-IDF side claims is that they do so because of rampant antisemitism, but believing that antisemites control the global media and and the UN with no exceptions is about as believable as saying the Jews do. It’s not because of rampant antisemitism (correction: it’s not ONLY because of rampant antisemitism); it’s because of excellent work by the Hamas propaganda arm convincing the world that Hamas’ Ministry of Health is a reliable source, and because the West is full of useful idiots who can’t view the world through anything other than the lens of their own white and black (pun intended) colonialist history. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1439 "2024-08-15T17:14:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the original Haaretz article in Hebrew Link please? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1440 "2024-08-15T17:27:31Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > There is the narrative that comes from the IDF the Israeli government Israeli news sources, and certain right wing US sources that says that the IDF is taking great pains to avoid civilian causalities and is fully justified in all of the actions that they are taking and that any deviations from this are lone actors who are being swiftly punished. Then you have the narrative of everyone else who says that Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe the vast majority of the population displaced, a total collapse of the healthcare system, and little or no access to food and clean water, and Israel making decisions that exacerbate the situation. Why can’t both be true? ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=73)