# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1481 "2024-08-16T07:17:41Z")
That is a very good point, however, as I mentioned before Egypt does not have _jus soli_. The U.S. is one of the few countries with birthright citizenship. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1482 "2024-08-16T07:18:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > however, as I mentioned before Egypt does not have _jus soli_. Then they should. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1483 "2024-08-16T07:18:12Z")
But they don’t. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1484 "2024-08-16T07:25:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Keeping families in “refugee” status for generations, where they can never be resettled or repatriated, is abhorrent and indicates a fundamental failure of policy. I’m going to ask you to pick the lesser of two evils. Please assume for the sake of argument that the Palestinian people are stateless (the state of Palestine having long since ceased to exist or protect its people). Refugee status for generations, entitled to aid and protections under international law. or No refugee status past first generation, children not entitled to aid or protections under international law. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1485 "2024-08-16T07:27:21Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > No refugee status past first generation, children not entitled to aid or protections under international law. There shouldn’t be a need for refugee status after the first generation; you should be a citizen of the country in which you were born and fully entitled to all the rights and privileges granted to a citizen thereof. In the case of the Gazans, that country is Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1486 "2024-08-16T07:28:45Z")
Maybe you are right, about how things should be, but that’s not the way things _are_ which is why I asked you to assume the people are stateless before answering. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1487 "2024-08-16T07:31:21Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > but that’s not the way things _are_ And whose fault is that? It’s not Israel’s fault that Egypt refuses to take responsibility for its people. Perhaps the UN, should it ever free itself from Putin’s yoke, should devote its energy to eliminating statelessness rather than preserving it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Just because Russia abuses the stupid Security Council veto (an intentional design feature - one that the US has also abused, often in Israel’s favour, I might add) and doesn’t belong there doesn’t make UN agencies (which have existed long before the Russian Federation) “the international propaganda arm of the Putin regime”. The US’ seat and veto power are lawful as established by the UN Charter. Russia is illegally squatting in a seat which the Charter provided to the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1488 "2024-08-16T07:38:11Z")
What does fault have to do with refugee versus non-refugee? Even if Palestinians in Gaza were technically Egyptian citizens (they aren’t), _that would not change the fact that Egypt isn’t protecting them_. That lack of protection from their home country (which Egypt isn’t) makes them refugees. Would you take away what little aid Gazans actually receive by virtue of being classified as refugees, just because you don’t believe Egypt has a right to self-determination? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1489 "2024-08-16T07:41:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Russia is illegally squatting in a seat which the Charter provided to the Soviet Union. How does _that_ work? Are they there by force? Do they sneak in at night? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1490 "2024-08-16T07:41:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Even if Palestinians in Gaza were technically Egyptian citizens (they aren’t), _that would not change the fact that Egypt isn’t protecting them_. Egypt should be protecting them. That’s my point. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Would you take away what little aid Gazans actually receive by virtue of being classified as refugees Personally I’d prefer the creation of an independent Republic of Gaza with Israel providing for its internal security until such time as responsible self-government can be reestablished. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1491 "2024-08-16T07:42:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Egypt should be protecting them. That’s my point. But it isn’t. In some hypothetical parallel universe where Egypt protects the Palestinians living in Gaza, those Palestinians would not be refugees. In the real world where Egypt doesn’t give a rat’s ass, the Palestinians are refugees. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1492 "2024-08-16T07:42:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In the real world where Egypt doesn’t give a rat’s ass, the Palestinians are refugees. Then that is a problem that needs to be resolved by establishing a Gazan state. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1493 "2024-08-16T07:43:40Z")
But it isn’t resolved, so they are refugees. Refugee is the kind of label that indicates there is a problem in need of urgent resolution. Multiple generations of refugees _should_ be abhorrent and indicate broad policy failure. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1494 "2024-08-16T07:44:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Refugee is the kind of label that indicates there is a problem in need of urgent resolution. The people in charge clearly don’t think it’s “urgent” if they’ve been refugees for 76 years. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1495 "2024-08-16T07:44:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > an independent Republic of Gaza with Israel providing for its internal security Class, can you say “ongoing occupation”? > [@Smapti](#): > > until such time as responsible self-government can be reestablished. Which Israel, no doubt, gets to decide… 1820 years, here we come… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1496 "2024-08-16T07:46:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Class, can you say “ongoing occupation”? Because ending the occupation in 2006 and turning things over to whoever won the election has clearly worked out SO well, right? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1497 "2024-08-16T07:46:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because ending the occupation in 2006 Oh, I was unaware the blockade ended in 2006… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1498 "2024-08-16T07:47:05Z")
I didn’t realize “occupation” and “blockade” were synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1499 "2024-08-16T07:49:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The people in charge clearly don’t think it’s “urgent” if they’ve been refugees for 76 years. But it is urgent, and has been, and refugee is the correct term. Like climate change is urgent, or like a gushing wound is urgent, the fact that it is being stupidly ignored does not magically make it any less urgent. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2024, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1500 "2024-08-16T07:54:26Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But it is urgent, and has been, and refugee is the correct term. > > Like climate change is urgent, or like a gushing wound is urgent, the fact that it is being stupidly ignored does not magically make it any less urgent. If you have a people who have been “refugees” for 76 years and cannot be repatriated, and a sovereign state for them cannot be established, then you ought to be working on finding countries for them to resettle in instead of deliberately keeping them stateless because maybe someday Israel will collapse and all the Jews will die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=76)