# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1661 "2024-09-17T18:45:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ISTM that this action greatly increases the chances of full-scale war with Hezbollah. > > I think it’s very possible that this is what Netanyahu and his allies want. So I gyess we are just pretending that Hezbollah hasn’t been firing thousands of rockets into Israel since Oct 7, setting fires in forests and fields, and taking sniper shots at farmers? Or are Hezbollah’s actions just understandable acts of resistance given Israel’s brutal occupation and siege of Lebanon which has lasted for a thousand years? Or is Hezbollah just a force of nature, not capable of any agency? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone managed to sneak explosives into pagers or phones owned by US service-people, or IDF members, A better analogy would be if someone snuck explosives onto the radios used by servicemen and provided to them by the army. Let’s not forget why they had pagers in the first place… to coordinate their ongoing terror strikes into Israel. (The ones we were conveniently pretending have not been happening until now). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1662 "2024-09-17T18:45:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > sowing chaos in their ranks and demonstarting to them that they arw not beyond Israel’s reach, > > Singling out this portion (Hezbollah is “they”, for reference) – this is pretty much the definition of a terror attack. A “terror attack”, maybe. But it doesn’t meet most definitions of “terrorism”. Wikipedia starts their article on terrorism with: **Terrorism** , in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against [non-combatants](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-combatant) to achieve political or ideological aims. Online dictionaries generally include words like " illegal" or “civilian”. An attack by a nation explicitly at war with another nation that primarily targets combatants doesn’t sound like “terrorism” to me. For good or ill, i suspect modern warfare is going to have a lot of stuff that like like this, leveraging consumer software to strike in the heart of a country. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1663 "2024-09-17T18:46:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone managed to sneak explosives into pagers or phones owned by US service-people, or IDF members, and detonated them simultaneously while most of them are in civilian areas doing civilian things, I’d have no trouble at all calling it a terrorist attack. I don’t think this changes because it’s Hezbollah. Yeah; “Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army”, as the saying goes. This would _definitely_ be labeled “terrorism” if Hezbollah did it, but won’t be if Israel did it. Or the US, or any other Western nation. The term is heavily politicized. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1664 "2024-09-17T18:51:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This wasn’t a war-zone. Ahhh, the Middle East. The only place in the world where people can live in a home they built and own, where they have lived for generations, surrounded by others in the same exact situation, and we call it a “refugee camp”, and where thousands of rockets can come flying at you, launched from places that are “not war zones”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1665 "2024-09-17T18:52:39Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > My bar is much, much higher than that for civilian areas, outside of a war-zone > > You are totally unaware of life in the Middle East. Hamas and Hezbollah have turned every city in Israel into a war zone. They launch missiles to attack civilians…and ONLY civilians-- in every city in Israel. > But when Israel defends itself by wounding the specific individuals who do the killing…that violates your definition of a “high bar”. > Sorry 'bout that…your bar is immoral. > Jewish lives matter. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > ISTM that this action greatly increases the chances of full-scale war with Hezbollah. > > > > I think it’s very possible that this is what Netanyahu and his allies want. > > So I gyess we are just pretending that Hezbollah hasn’t been firing thousands of rockets into Israel since Oct 7, setting fires in forests and fields, and taking sniper shots at farmers? > > Or are Hezbollah’s actions just understandable acts of resistance given Israel’s brutal occupation and siege of Lebanon which has lasted for a thousand years? > > Or is Hezbollah just a force of nature, not capable of any agency? > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > If someone managed to sneak explosives into pagers or phones owned by US service-people, or IDF members, > > A better analogy would be if someone snuck explosives onto the radios used by servicemen and provided to them by the army. Let’s not forget why they had pagers in the first place… to coordinate their ongoing terror strikes into Israel. (The ones we were conveniently pretending have not been happening until now). This Israeli government has been allowing, encouraging, and sometimes taking part in committing acts of brutality against Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. This Israeli government is, very clearly, not actually interested in long-term peace. It’s entirely appropriate to be very skeptical (which is all I am so far) of a mass-explosive attack in civilian areas, in Lebanon or anywhere else, overseen by this Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1666 "2024-09-17T19:18:16Z")
This Israeli government is essentially part of the perpetual war party - just like Hamas, just like Hezbollah. Yes, I think Netanyahu is that bad. Doesn’t matter that his toleration and sometimes support for atrocities is for political rather than ideological reasons. We should be very, very skeptical of every action by this government that is not aimed for long term peace. Anything else is harmful to the region and the long term security of Israel. Just because Hezbollah is launching rockets doesn’t mean that a bunch of small bombs and blood in Lebanon is good for Israel. Supporters of Israel should be willing to be critical of actions like this based on the potential for blowback and more. Not all killing and wounding, even if the enemy, is necessarily good or effective for security. I’m waiting on the details of the casualties to make any final judgement, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1667 "2024-09-17T19:26:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Supporters of Israel should be willing to be critical of actions like this based on the potential for blowback and more. Not all killing and wounding, even if the enemy, is necessarily good or effective for security. I literally can’t think of a single way to do a more targeted strike than this, but OK dude. Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1668 "2024-09-17T19:32:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I literally can’t think of a single way to do a more targeted strike than this, but OK dude. Whatever you say. What a beautiful way to say, “Fuck you”. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1669 "2024-09-17T19:46:26Z")
That’s the wrong way to think. An attack could be perfectly targeted and yet still unwise in the long term. You seem to be thinking only in the short term. All IMO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1670 "2024-09-17T19:57:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You seem to be thinking only in the short term. All IMO, of course. No, we just have different opinions about the trajectory of things. You seem to be under the impression that if Israel would only grunt and suffer instead of striking back, and did this long enough, then eventually our neighbors would get tired of attacking us, get used to us being there, and make nice with us. That’s completely ahistorical. We didn’t make peace with Egypt or Jordan by peacefully coexisting until they started to like us; we made peace by winning war after war until they stopped attacking. Hezbollah and Hamas aren’t going to stop their attacks if we just ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1671 "2024-09-17T19:58:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The only place in the world where people can live in a home they built and own, where they have lived for generations, surrounded by others in the same exact situation, and we call it a “refugee camp” Other than all those _other_ refugee camps in North Africa, SE Asia and the Horn that are exactly like that. Yeah , the “only place” This bullshit has been debunked multiple times. Get some new fucking spin. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1672 "2024-09-17T20:07:15Z")
There’s a long, long way between “grunt and suffer” and what’s happening now. My position is that Netanyahu and co are running this war (and policy in the West Bank, and now policy regarding the north and Hezbollah) in a way meant to prolong it forever, not in a way meant to get back hostages and work towards long term peace. So far, you’ve presented nothing that really disproves this, or even real evidence against, just exhortations that we can trust the IDF, that Netanyahu and his extremist allies are not really running the war, that they really don’t have any influence on the IDF… I don’t find that credible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1673 "2024-09-17T20:10:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My position is that Netanyahu and co are running this war (and policy in the West Bank, and now policy regarding the north and Hezbollah) in a way meant to prolong it forever, not in a way meant to get back hostages and work towards long term peace Well… So far, you’ve presented nothing that really proves this, or even real evidence for it, just exhortations that Ben Gvir and Smotrich are running the country and that Netanyahu is fighting this war in a way that’s different than how anyone else would. I don’t find that credible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1674 "2024-09-17T20:14:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Other than all those _other_ refugee camps in North Africa, SE Asia and the Horn that are exactly like that. Yeah , the “only place” Bullshit. Unlike those pther places, Palestinians in so called Refugee Camps are living in Palestinian controlled territory. The only reason to call them “refugees” is to keep them useful as an ace up the sleeve against a two state solution by invoking the right of return. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1675 "2024-09-17T20:15:50Z")
Okay, let’s explore this and find the actual point of disagreement. Do you believe Netanyahu wants to end the war and get all the hostages home as fast as possible, or prolong it for as long as it is politically beneficial for him? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1676 "2024-09-17T20:17:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My position is that Netanyahu and co are running this war (and policy in the West Bank, and now policy regarding the north and Hezbollah) in a way meant to prolong it forever, not in a way meant to get back hostages and work towards long term peace. Are Hamas or Hezbollah interested in long term peace with Israel? At all? There is no such thing as working towards peace with people who aren’t interested in peace. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1677 "2024-09-17T20:18:58Z")
That’s not the question. If Israel can make peace with most Palestinians and surrounding countries, they could work together against the death cults like Hamas and Hezbollah. Obviously this isn’t likely anytime soon, but this should be the ultimate goal, and really the only possibility for long term security for Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1678 "2024-09-17T20:21:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe Netanyahu wants to end the war and get all the hostages home as fast as possible, or prolong it for as long as it is politically beneficial for him? That’s a very strange binary. I don’t think he’s after either of those outcomes. Netanyahu wants to end the war by defeating Hamas. He does not want to end the war by freeing thousands of Hamas terrorists in exchange for the remaining hostages. He, and Hamas, would view that as an Israeli defeat. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1679 "2024-09-17T20:22:41Z")
Okay, then that’s the point of disagreement. You appear to believe that Netanyahu isn’t (or wouldn’t) putting his own political concerns over the fate of the hostages and the goal of actual victory in the war. I believe he is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1680 "2024-09-17T20:23:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If Israel can make peace with most Palestinians and surrounding countries, they could work together against the death cults like Hamas and Hezbollah. How exactly do you see this working? Who can we talk to in order to sign a peace with the non Hamas Palestinians of Gaza? Get me their name and email and I’ll forward it to every member of Parliament right now [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=85)