# Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653 "2023-11-05T21:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1681 "2024-09-17T20:24:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Bullshit. So the places I’ve cited before are _not_ multi-generational sites with permanent homes they built? > [@Babale](#): > > Palestinians in so called Refugee Camps are living in Palestinian controlled territory Well, other than absolutely zero control of their borders, or imports and exports, or anything like that…sure, “controlled”. And they’re refugees because that’s not the place they’re originally from. > [@Babale](#): > > The only reason to call them “refugees” is to keep them useful as an ace up the sleeve against a two state solution by invoking the right of return. What’s the reason for calling the Karen, the Sarahwi, the Somalis and Sudanese refugees…? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1682 "2024-09-17T20:24:27Z")
Unfortunately I don’t have all the answers, but not having all the answers doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize futile actions (at least for military rather than political goals) and extreme corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1683 "2024-09-17T20:36:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, then that’s the point of disagreement. You appear to believe that Netanyahu isn’t (or wouldn’t) putting his own political concerns over the fate of the hostages and the goal of actual victory in the war. I believe he is. …no, that’s not the point of disagreement. The point of disagreement is that you seem to think that returning the hostages is worth _any_ cost, including capitulation to Hamas. If that’s what we wanted, we could have given them what they’re still demanding for a ceasefire all the way back on Oct 8 - full withdrawl from Gaza and lifting of all restrictions on it, the release of thousands of terrorist, etc. Of course, we’d be setting ourselves up for a repeat of Oct 7 (or much much worse) if we did that… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unfortunately I don’t have all the answers, but not having all the answers doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize futile actions (at least for military rather than political goals) and extreme corruption My turn to ask some questions. Do you think Israel should agree to a ceasefire if it means releasing thousands of terrorists and leaving Hamas in control of Gaza? How on _earth_ do you see that leading to peace in the long term, rather than encouraging Oct 7 repeats? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1684 "2024-09-17T20:38:19Z")
I have made no declaration of the best way to get back the hostages, only that it’s clear to me that Netanyahu and his allies don’t consider it a high priority (they’ve essentially said this), and Netanyahu himself clearly puts his own political needs above getting back the hostages, defeating Hamas, ending the war, and long term peace and security. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1685 "2024-09-17T20:55:47Z")
We will have to see a final breakdown of the casualties of the attack, but based on current news reports it doesn’t appear to be perfectly targeted. All the news reports I’ve seen say “hundreds” of pagers exploded, but 2,700 were injured with 9 deaths. So even if we assume that hundreds meant 900 pagers, and every one of those pagers injured their target then that means at least 2/3 of those injured were just people who happened to be near the target. And the ratio of non targets injured to targets killed is more than 200 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1686 "2024-09-17T21:00:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s the reason for calling the Karen, Most of them aren’t called refugees. The ones who are, are in a very similar situation to Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan: the Thais, like the Jordanians, don’t want them in their country, so they keep them in camps and leave them stateless. I can agree that the places where Jordan keeps Palestinians under lock and key are refugee camps; but cities in the West Bank or Gaza are most certainly not. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Sarahwi Are fleeing an ongoing conflict by going to Algeria which, again much like Jordan, doesn’t want anything to do with them. We don’t call cities in the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic that are full of Sahrawi people “refugee camps”, as far as I know. Even though the SADR does not control all of “Western Sahara” nor is it internationally recognized by all countries. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Somalis The ones in camps in Kenya? Who, again, are fleeing ongoing conflicts by going to another country that doesn’t want to let them in? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Sudanese Well, because there’s an _actual_ genocide going on there right now, but no one has found a way to blame the Jews for that one yet, so nobody cares. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And they’re refugees because that’s not the place they’re originally from. Well, if they were born there (and if their parents were born there too…), it actually _is_ the place where they are originally from. Unless you’re going to take the stance that much of the population of Pakistan and India is made up of people who are currently refugees… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1687 "2024-09-17T21:49:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …no, that’s not the point of disagreement. The point of disagreement is that you seem to think that returning the hostages is worth _any_ cost, including capitulation to Hamas. If that’s what we wanted, we could have given them what they’re still demanding for a ceasefire all the way back on Oct 8 - full withdrawl from Gaza and lifting of all restrictions on it, the release of thousands of terrorist, etc. Of course, we’d be setting ourselves up for a repeat of Oct 7 (or much much worse) if we did that… This is not my position, so this isn’t the point of disagreement. Back to Netanyahu – do you think he values his own political needs and concerns above or below a) getting the hostages back and b) winning the war? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1688 "2024-09-17T22:10:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well… > > So far, you’ve presented nothing that really proves this, or even real evidence for it, just exhortations that Ben Gvir and Smotrich are running the country and that Netanyahu is fighting this war in a way that’s different than how anyone else would. I don’t find that credible. “We won’t step down until the war is done. Completely by coincidence, we’ve added yet another goal to the war.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1689 "2024-09-17T22:11:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Back to Netanyahu – do you think he values his own political needs and concerns above or below a) getting the hostages back and b) winning the war? I’m certain his number one concern is saving his own skin. I don’t see how prolonging the war helps him with that, though. I get it, the Iraq war helped Bush. This is a different situation and a different country. The war hasn’t even stopped Netanyahu’s ongoing trial. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1690 "2024-09-17T22:22:04Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > “We won’t step down until the war is done. Completely by coincidence, we’ve added yet another goal to the war.” He doesn’t have the decency to step down regardless of the war’s end, and has talked as if he expects to serve the remainder of his term. For context, I think there’s been like, 1 Israeli prime minister, ever, who served to the end of their term without resigning or being ousted with a motion of non confidence. So even without Oct 7 and the ensuing war, that would be unlikely. Netanyahu will leave office either due to his trial or by the rest of Parliament. Neither of those options require him to decide he is ready to go, or the war to end. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1691 "2024-09-17T22:26:45Z")
And then he’s just elected again, as Likud is currently leading the polls and gaining support daily. We’re eleven months into this war, and Bibi is stronger than any time after October 6th. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1692 "2024-09-17T22:36:16Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > And then he’s just elected again, as Likud is currently leading the polls and gaining support daily Likud has recovered slightly in the polls, but Netanyahu’s coalition is ravaged. Smotrich and Ben Gvir’s parties are still projected to fall out of government entirely. The Opposition parties are still projected to have a 20 seat majority. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1693 "2024-09-17T22:45:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > Back to Netanyahu – do you think he values his own political needs and concerns above or below a) getting the hostages back and b) winning the war? > > I’m certain his number one concern is saving his own skin. > > I don’t see how prolonging the war helps him with that, though. I get it, the Iraq war helped Bush. This is a different situation and a different country. > > The war hasn’t even stopped Netanyahu’s ongoing trial. So this is the actual point of disagreement. I think he’s doing everything he can to prolong the war because he thinks it helps him avoid an election. He’s said openly that he doesn’t think there should be elections during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1694 "2024-09-17T23:02:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s said openly that he doesn’t think there should be elections during the war. He has, but it’s not _up to him_, is it? That only helps him as long as the opposition agrees that this war is not the time for an election, correct? If the centrist or center left emergency government members agreed with you and thought Netanyahu was dragging on the war, they could stop him at any time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1695 "2024-09-17T23:25:41Z")
Could they? Alone? I’m admittedly not an expert on the Israeli system, but wouldn’t they need a majority? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1696 "2024-09-17T23:35:46Z")
Pretty sure Likud plus the further right zionist parties as well as the Orthodox parties make up a majority. The centrist parties that joined the emergency government aren’t necessary for Netanyahu’s majority, so they would need to peel off one of the parties to the right of Likud in order to get a majority to oppose them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1697 "2024-09-17T23:38:53Z")
Right. That’s what I thought. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1698 "2024-09-17T23:41:17Z")
Also I believe one of the centrist parties has already left the emergency coalition and Benny Gantz has threatened to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1699 "2024-09-18T00:00:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Could they? Alone? Alone, no, it would take 5 members of the current government, of any party. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > wouldn’t they need a majority? Presumably any group of ministers that decides to do this could rely on 56 existing Opposition votes ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/1700 "2024-09-18T00:09:38Z")
Who are the 5 center or center left members? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653.md?page=86)